GaryR wrote:GaryR wrote:DeusTrismegistus wrote:
Yes and when my great aunt prayed over warts and small cuts and blemishes and healed them that was fake too, even though they went away and never came back.
Just because you haven't experienced something doesn't mean it can't happen. Just because science says something shouldn't be able to happen doesn't mean it isn't happening. Ridiculing others because they believe something different than you and have different experiences than you is just being an asshole.
Yes, I hate to break it to you, but that was most likely fake. People have been trying to prove the power of prayer unsuccessfully for generations. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. So forgive me if I don't believe your aunt prayed to heal her warts and her imaginary friend granted the wish.
I'm "ridiculing others" preposterous claims that lack evidence. In no other sphere of discourse do we give people a pass because they believe something without, or perhaps in-spite of evidence. Seeing as how by the time you finish reading this someone in this world will likely be killed due to differences in their belief of "god", I think ridicule of such claims should be more widespread and harsh.
We got a bit off topic, but I think it relates somewhat to the external Qi demo. Its all belief, and belief that causes people to act silly sometimes. People shouldn't be surprised when they are laughed at for such things, if I'm an asshole for requiring evidence and rationality, then i'll own that.
GDeusTrismegistus wrote:Sorry, wasn't fake when she did it for me when I was a child, or my mom.
You are missing the point. No one is asking anyone to believe it. What you are doing is no different than the child who claims to hate shrimp even though they have never eaten shrimp. You have no experience so how do you know its fake? The answer is you don't. If people would simply have an open mind and not deny the existence of things of which they know nothing, and respond with politeness and kindness instead of ridicule and hate, then there would be a lot fewer arguments in this world.
This is probably the one thing I dislike about RSF. Its like any other clique where if you don't tow the party line you are ostracized. Here that party line is qi is fake, spirituality is bunk, the mystic has no place in the martial arts. There is no right answer that involves qi or energy or God or anything except nerves and sinew. A video of external qi transmission will get the same welcome here as would by meat heads on myspace martial arts forums. Judgement has already been passed and there is no room for an actual discussion about what is happening, and I may be alone but I find that sad and pathetic.
Well, like I said I will just have to take your word for it.
I'm not missing your point at all, in fact I am way past it. Your analogy is false. First, shrimp actually exist, and can be shown to exist. Experience or non-experience with a known and demonstrable item like shrimp is a different matter. I can't by definition "hate" something that I have no evidence is even in existence. Moreover, no person can even prove they have experience with god, thats why its a "faith" by definition. How can one demand someone have "experience" with something that can't be shown to even exist? If you count experience as having prayed, and read and studied most of the worlds religious texts and history, then put me down for a lot of experience. When millions of people have contradicting viewpoints on "faiths", "god" or "truth" etc, is it not reasonable to say to them all "prove it, show me the strength of your evidence, each of you says the other is wrong, and you are right, in fact some of you are killing each other due to that, why don't you offer proof for your conjecture and myth, agree to disagree and then go home and leave everyone alone!?" Why should they be allowed to start wars, or invade public policy with such nonsense? Of course if people of faith kept it a private matter, there would be no need to ask them such questions that could potentially ridicule or embarrass them.
Please don't confuse my ridicule of faith with hate, or my ridicule with intolerance. Just like any other good discourse, you should debate the idea, not the person, no reason to go ad ho-minim! Good and smart people can and do have ridiculous views that they have no evidence for whatsoever. Just because someone believes something silly or different shouldn't give anyone a reason to hate them, or be intolerant of them. Your aunt should enjoy the freedom to pray for whomever she wants and to whom or whatever she wants. But what if for example that prayer is in lieu of getting a minor child a lifesaving surgery? (not the case with warts I should hope). The right to tolerance for anything should end when it interferes with anothers right of life and peaceful existence. This is just how society is set up. My right to drive my car at 75 MPH ends when there is a school zone with kids walking across the street at all hours. Plowing through a school zone and hoard of children should not be tolerated, regardless of my supernatural belief that god will punish me if I don't or whatever...
If I held a belief for which I had no evidence, say I thought that a supreme alien being threw our souls into a volcano, and after the eruption sprung human life (see scientology), I should expect a good degree of ridicule, skepticism, etc. I should expect such critique especially if I was lobbying to form public policy or start a war from the basis of my volcano/soul/alien conjecture.
But, back to the MA side of it...
I thought RSF was sort of the opposite actually...perhaps you should take an empty force poll?????
But given there is no evidence that Qi exists literally, and especially no evidence it exists in the context that it can control others from a distance. I don't think one can cry foul when most people look at that video and laugh out-loud on this forum or any other. Its amusingly ridiculous. This is sort of a false dilemma, but it illustrates my point. Say your friend is a soon to be student (who was just hired as a security guard who will routinely need to confront bad guys in the near future) had two teachers to pick from in his hometown (he doesn't have time to take both classes). One of them taught external qi methods as in the video and said they were real and he could use them in self defense, and that no "low level" "touch" techniques were taught. There was no evidence presented for the external qi claims, other than the actions of the willing participants, and even those who have tried to prove it with studies have failed, there is also no proof these methods have been used in self defense, other than stories the master tells that are a thousand years old. The other teacher is a big time RBSD guy who puts people in the mix right away with the best of the best methods for self defense, weapons disarms etc. The RBSD guy has taught numerous LEO's and security guards who have used his methods with success (and they can prove it). Your friend comes to you for advice since you presumably are an expert and have done MA of various kinds for many many years. Your friend is not a real critical thinker, or skeptic, and really wants to believe the magic external Chinese thing can save his butt but also likes the looks of that RBSD class as well. What do you say? Would you ask him to weigh the available evidence as to what has been proven to work? Which class would you want him to take?
Basically, we should all just laugh away. The clip is silly, and the people are acting silly. Lets just hope they don't have to attempt to use that nonsense to save their own skins someday! Does it mean we should hate them, not in the least, be intolerant of them? No, but we can/should ask for evidence, and not be afraid to ridicule, critique, and debate absurd and "faith" based ideas and practices without reserve. That is what makes life interesting, if we all agreed on everything, there would be much less interesting discussion!
G
I agree with most of your points but ridiculing others no matter how silly something appears is never productive, nor kind.
With your friend scenario I would tell my friend to go to the RBSD guy. Because of all the traditional methods of training no touch techniques they are considered yin techniques and require decades of dedicated practice to become proficient in. Further if I cannot transfer qi by touch how could I ever hope to learn how to do a more advanced version that requires no touch? So even if the guy can really honestly teach no touch techs that work they would not be suitable for what my friend is looking for.
