Jimmy & Doug vs. Wing Chun

[Andy_S]

RE: This...

SNIP
Too much WC emphasis these days on people just straight-blasting forward. The angles are important, as is the ability to check/manipulate the arms/fist that is coming towards you. Whenever you see WC sparring, you rarely see Pak Sau, Fook Sau etc... which, of course, is a bridge.

Graham was asking, with humor, where the trapping was. This was actually a really good question. Not the text-book trapping you see in books or promo films, but the simple trapping that makes up WC; i.e. contacting/bridging for just long enough to cut off a further attack. A simple Pak Sau can do this. Yet in WC sparring we too often see the crazy chain punching and nothing else. WC is also full of grabs and momentary holds to stop a person easily stepping back or away once your in close-quarter hitting range... this also is abandoned by most WC guys when they try and spar.
SNIP

And this...

SNIP
Yes! So many tools, yet virtually none of them used!
SNIP

The problem with having advanced tools and large numbers of techniques, is that we only have one lifetime. The most effective martials arts and martial artists are those who have a small number of very well honed techniques.

I think the main takeaway one gets from all footage of CMA sparring is that when push comes to shove, people fall back on the simple basics - which is why the straight blast is good.
(1) It is easily learned;
(1) It is a hit - not a trap;
(3) It is simple and can be retained under pressure; and
(4) It is offensive, not defensive
It is a very decent tactic for SD, but may falls down against trained fighters. If I were training or teaching WC, I would priotitize this over the many arm traps.

Many, many Southern CMA teach too much "hand-chasing" IMHO. (I went through this stage myself) Trapping, ideally, closes your opponent's door and/or turns his corner, so needs to be trained in connection with footwork; this combination of skills is a core competency of Bagua, but a lot of WC misses the lower half of the equation, IME and IMHO.

But any trap is only a split second move and does not win the fight. People spend too much time training this rather than the finishers - strikes and throws.

I'd add that it is harder (though not impossible) to work traps when wearing gloves, and as so much sparring and sports MA training - which is where the natural/best fighters gravitate to these days - uses gloves, trapping as a subset of CMA technique, may be in terminal decline.

[SimonMW]

The problem with having advanced tools and large numbers of techniques, is that we only have one lifetime. The most effective martials arts and martial artists are those who have a small number of very well honed techniques.

Wing Chun doesn't really have techniques. The shapes are formed in response to the opponents attacks and bridges. In Wing Chun there are very few shapes, which is why when it is done properly it is very effective because you don't need to remember 'techniques'.

I would priotitize this over the many arm traps.

I don't like the idea of traps as presented here. A trap is not a complex series of moves to get the opponent tied up. The trap can be part of an onslaught of punches, palms etc simply by the way that linked attacks work in Wing Chun. The trouble is that many people misunderstand linked attacks as meaning chain punching. I call chain punching as demoed by Leung Tings guys "hit and hope".

Many, many Southern CMA teach too much "hand-chasing" IMHO. (I went through this stage myself) Trapping, ideally, closes your opponent's door and/or turns his corner, so needs to be trained in connection with footwork; this combination of skills is a core competency of Bagua, but a lot of WC misses the lower half of the equation, IME and IMHO.

Yes, you are right. Most Wing Chun out there misses out the footwork portion. Most Wing Chun guys do not know how to generate the power in movements from the ground up. Another issue with most Wing Chun, certainly the Hong Kong variations, is the emphasis on chi sau. Too many practitioners equate or think that if they are good at chi sau they will be good at fighting. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[dtactics]

Yes, you are right. Most Wing Chun out there misses out the footwork portion. Most Wing Chun guys do not know how to generate the power in movements from the ground up. Another issue with most Wing Chun, certainly the Hong Kong variations, is the emphasis on chi sau. Too many practitioners equate or think that if they are good at chi sau they will be good at fighting. Nothing could be further from the truth.

You mean like at :10 when he's about to fall on his arse from the attack? And the guys not even trying to tackle him.... just plain stumbling forward. Some of these guys get all giddy about their rapid hands they forget to test against real pressure and inertia. Great subliminal message for his psyche "Push the Tempo!"

[SimonMW]

That's the the thing about all these YouTube videos. Need to watch the guy doing the attacking more than the guy doing the defending to see how good they are.

[DuncanUS]

The biggest problem with this latest clip is that, unlike in the lyrics to the song, the WC player is not 'pushing the tempo'.

Not only are his defensive movements, more often than not, moving backwards, so too are most of his attacking movements. He's not eating the attacker's space. As a result his punches will serve only to irritate the attacker.

[dtactics]

At 1:10, he tries to convey how sturdy his stance is on the edge of a precipice. Very effective against patty-cakes. Add a bit of pressure it's :10 all over again.

[gosao]

Gary Lam is here showing flanking, positioning and occupying the opponents space in wing chun.

[Dr.Rob]

I wondered how long before Gary Lam would pop up. He is the bees knees. Great hand and footwork combo. I own his BackYard lessons. Excellent exponent of his chosen art.

[C.J.Wang]

Great skills coupled with superior height and weight is a deadly combination, especially in the case of Sifu Lam.

[Sean]

Check out this guy, who was also, like Gary Lam, a student of Wong Shun Leung's

[SimonMW]

The gor sau in the Phillip Bayer clip looked scrappy. No root, just head hunting hands. He wasn't controlling the opponent at all or using angles much at all. Plus his opponent wasn't really giving anything back.

[Sean]

I respectully beg to differ. I have had the opportunity to roll a little bit with Mr. Bayer and he is as solid and rooted as a tree...and at the same time extremely fast and mobile. He totally controls his opponent in this vid, and is using slight changes in angles and the idea of lat sau chik chung to do it. And although it looks like the other guy isn't trying....well it's hard to look effective when your being totally dominated.

Anyone who knows Mr. Bayer and has crossed hands with him can tell you how extremely solid the guys skills are.

[SimonMW]

I would need to see for myself. The trouble with this sort of thing is that 'good' is relative to what you are used to seeing. Now, I don't know what your skill is personally, but I'm sure you understand that if for instance you hadn't been doing Wing Chun for long you might think what you saw or experience was good. Bayer wasn't using angles efectively in that clip. He was face square onto the opponent at all times, he was not manipulating the opponents balance or facing at all. It was all hand speed. In that specific clip at least.

[Sean]

Well, I am no wing chun god, but I've been at it for about seven years now and I've experienced both Wan Kam Leung and Philipp Bayer, both of whom are internationally recognized as some of the best ving tsun people out there.
For me the angles he uses in the clip are visible and effective, subtle and precise.

But you're right, this sort of thing is both relative and difficult to see on vid. The best thing is to see for yourself, for sure. If you're ever in Germany you can always pay him a visit in Menden. He is known to be a really generous host, oppenly explaining and showing his ving tsun to those who are interested.

cheers,
Sean

[DuncanUS]

I would agree, to the most part, with Sean.

Bayer's use of angles are not as clear as Gary Lam's, but they are certainly there. And as C.J. Wang said, Gary is very good at using his size to aid his Wing Chun... which is what every fighter/Martial Artist should do. No need to abandon your natural advantages. I would happily learn from Gary Lam, Phillip Bayer and Wan Kam Leung.