Donn F. Draeger

[Finny]

The original western MA researcher/expert:

Donn F. Draeger - Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu





Uchida Ryu Tanjojutsu



Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu

[Andy_S]

Tremendous! Nobody in MA, east or west, had anything but tremendous respect for the man's abilities and personality, so it is great to see him in action - this is some of the best TJMA I have seen. (Though I agree with Robert Smith that his books are bloody dry - he did not project much of himself into them.) Apparently, despite his reverence for TJMA, he was a real character and had a great sense of humour - as one might expect from a serious ex-Jarhead.

Hat tip for posting.

BTW - and at a totally different tangent:
Why do TJMA spend SO much time in, and responding to attacks from, the sitting position? Were there really ninja crawling out of the woodwork every time a tired samurai set down on his tatami for a swife sake? Seriously, no other TMA spends nearly this much time sat on its fat erse.

[baguaboy]

Whenever I see his weapons demos i have to hold my breath in awe of the deadly precision he displays. Very nice videos

[cerebus]

Tremendous! Nobody in MA, east or west, had anything but tremendous respect for the man's abilities and personality, so it is great to see him in action - this is some of the best TJMA I have seen. (Though I agree with Robert Smith that his books are bloody dry - he did not project much of himself into them.) Apparently, despite his reverence for TJMA, he was a real character and had a great sense of humour - as one might expect from a serious ex-Jarhead.

Hat tip for posting.

+1

[The K Prodigy]

Why do TJMA spend SO much time in, and responding to attacks from, the sitting position?

Because seiza was(and might still be) the position most Japanese people spent their time in when not standing, and since you could be attacked at any moment, for any reason, training to defend yourself in seiza, or transitioning out of seiza, would be important.

[Fubo]

Donn Draeger's essays on Judo kata train are well worth the read. A google search should bring some up.

[middleway]

awesome vids! reminds me so much of my JMA teacher here in the UK.

thanks for posting

chris

[middleway]

just expanding a little on what Andy said above ... alot of work is done from Kiza but very little actually from seiza. Seiza is the formal seated position where as Kiza is the position where by instead of on the front of your feet your actually on the balls of the feet sat on the heels.

i found this on a blog that sums it up nicely.

The term describes the kneeling posture where you sit on the balls of your feet – something performed very often in iaido – and is called KIZA (危座). In iaido the posture itself is something of an in-between position, between getting out of seiza and performing some other movement, but there is more to it than this. Lets look at the kanji:

危 – DANGEROUS. Examples: kiken-na (危険な); abunai (危ない).
座 – SEAT / SIT. Examples: kamiza (上座); seiza (正座); zazen (座禅); suwaru (座る).

So what does it mean? Basically, KIZA refers to a seating position in which you can immediately launch an attack (or defend yourself) against an opponent/enemy. Its not an in-between position, rather its a physical state that is itself threatening and – at the same time – wary. If the opponent moves, you can react; if they make no move to attack you, then you can either launch your own attack preemptively, or remain there in a state of wariness

expanding on this ...

Why do TJMA spend SO much time in, and responding to attacks from, the sitting position? Were there really ninja crawling out of the woodwork every time a tired samurai set down on his tatami for a swife sake? Seriously, no other TMA spends nearly this much time sat on its fat erse.

There are alot of reasons. One of them most talked about is that whenever indoors you would invariably be in this position in feudal Japan so alot of methods were devised from this position.

cheers
Chris

[Finny]

The work from seiza has been explained, but in these videos the only "on the floor" techniques you will see will be iaijutsu done from iai-goshi - sometimes called hanza handachi IIRC

Not actually kneeling, more of a low crouch - I once heard it described as "if a sprinter on the blocks went lower and sat back a bit, they would be close to iai-goshi"

[Andy_S]

This idea of being at constant danger of attacked inside and when seated: Really? How often did this happen, compared to incidents of being attacked when one is on one's feet?

The question still stands: Why were Japanese more at risk of being attacked while sitting compared to Chinese, Koreans, Thais, etc, who spend little (or any) training time preparing for this eventuality.

With TJMA weapons arts, we are talking warriors of feudal Japan. If they were on active service and were sitting indoors, presumably, they would (in most cases) be in a formed unit, with sentries posted, or behind secure walls. If they were surprise attacked, it would most likely be outdoors. Regardless of surprise attack, most (if not all) battles and probably most skirmishes and ambushes started with men on their feet. I can't see any significant TACTICAL reason for the very considerable amounts of time spent in responding to attacks from the sitting position (be it seiza, keiza or squatting over the crapper). There may be, as Tom alludes, a good BODY TRAINING reason for doing it, but I don't buy this argument that the samurai were at constant peril whenever they took the weight off their feet.

I am sure there are McKinley's in today's world who practice SD from a barstool - after all, being spanked in a boozer is a pretty common occurance. But I would be surprised if it took up more than 1 percent of their time.

Thinking out loud, I wonder if it is a ritual conceit....? After all, many MA classes in Japan start with sitting mediation and bowing, etc, etc, so it might make sense to start your practice from said position. But that does not reflect tactical likelihood ("Ah, so! Always be prepared to be attacked when sitting...") it reflects dojo tradition.

[The K Prodigy]

This idea of being at constant danger of attacked inside and when seated: Really? How often did this happen, compared to incidents of being attacked when one is on one's feet?

The question still stands: Why were Japanese more at risk of being attacked while sitting compared to Chinese, Koreans, Thais, etc, who spend little (or any) training time preparing for this eventuality.

With TJMA weapons arts, we are talking warriors of feudal Japan. If they were on active service and were sitting indoors, presumably, they would (in most cases) be in a formed unit, with sentries posted, or behind secure walls. If they were surprise attacked, it would most likely be outdoors. Regardless of surprise attack, most (if not all) battles and probably most skirmishes and ambushes started with men on their feet. I can't see any significant TACTICAL reason for the very considerable amounts of time spent in responding to attacks from the sitting position (be it seiza, keiza or squatting over the crapper). There may be, as Tom alludes, a good BODY TRAINING reason for doing it, but I don't buy this argument that the samurai were at constant peril whenever they took the weight off their feet.

Often enough to develop forms for.

Because Japanese samurai drank a lot of tea.

Samurai were not in units, they were like knights or lords, fighters with privilege, they did not always hang out with their samurai buddies and drink sake in the safety of the castle.

[bailewen]

um....never mind feudal Japan. Don't a lot of Japanese homes, until a lot more recent than feudal Japan, not generally use chairs?

Don't know what Japan is like today but judging from their movies and television from even as recent as the 50's and 60's, people sit around on the ground. No need to train special defense from a chair as all you need to do is plant both feet on the ground when you sit rather than crossing your legs and you are basically already in a horse stance. If you live in a culture largely without chairs...makes sense to train to defend from that position.

The question still stands: Why were Japanese more at risk of being attacked while sitting compared to Chinese, Koreans, Thais, etc, who spend little (or any) training time preparing for this eventuality.

I can't speak to Korean or Thai customs, but Chinese people have favored Chairs even in feudal times. Even it it's just a holdover from feudal times, that would pretty much explain it.

[yusuf]

..thanks for posting.. lets not forget that Otake kicks some serious ass...

[Finny]

um....never mind feudal Japan. Don't a lot of Japanese homes, until a lot more recent than feudal Japan, not generally use chairs?

Don't know what Japan is like today but judging from their movies and television from even as recent as the 50's and 60's, people sit around on the ground. No need to train special defense from a chair as all you need to do is plant both feet on the ground when you sit rather than crossing your legs and you are basically already in a horse stance. If you live in a culture largely without chairs...makes sense to train to defend from that position.

The question still stands: Why were Japanese more at risk of being attacked while sitting compared to Chinese, Koreans, Thais, etc, who spend little (or any) training time preparing for this eventuality.

I can't speak to Korean or Thai customs, but Chinese people have favored Chairs even in feudal times. Even it it's just a holdover from feudal times, that would pretty much explain it.

This is the explanation Ive heard most often. Chinese culture has incorporated chairs for a long long time. Japanese folks have never really adopted chairs into their daily life. Everything they do starts from the floor.

And on top of that, don't forget the incessant paranoia of the warrior class in japan - the bushi had their own ways of eating and going to the toilet that left them less susceptible to surprise attack - why would they NOT train their sword work from the ground as well?

[Andy_S]

Bailewen:

Fair comments - that could be it.