Translation appreciated!

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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby Bodywork on Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:27 am

Hi Guys
I've been busy.

Daito ryu and ICMA I've gotten several PM's about the comparisons between the two. with a couple of guys stating their Taiji teachers think DR is good Taiji. I can say that when I met LCD (a peer of the fellow in the vid here) for a lengthy one-on-one he instantly had his hands all over me; back, groin, legs, head; feeling what I was doing when someone else pushed or pulled on me, then he stepped in and tried tossing me, locking me, shouldering, and elbowing me (to no avail), and then told me of his involvement teaching some of Sagawa's men in Japan. We hit it off quite well. It was strange to be talking with a Chinese guy through a translater and hearing the terms aiki-age and aiki-sage and the energy explained and described in Chinese. He was not the only Taiji guy to have his hands on me and tell me I was doing chansi-jin. As far as coiling goes, his opinions seemed to echo some of the PM's I get here.
Would I say that DR and Taiji are the same, no. Would I say they are similar, yes. To be clear I have not seen (nor do I know of) anyone in DR take the body skill to the area of work I have. For the most part they are forever stuck in their one-step kata routines and don't take the art to the next level; moving active resistence, then freestyle, then utilizing a full fighting paradigm; kicks, punches, throws, groundwork etc. The energies and means to train them are there, it's just that the art is forever "stuck in time," and self-limiting in the hands of teachers who don't dare to step beyond. The Japanese are known for their stiff, and rigid training models and few see past it- and if you do there is NO VENUE to express it-they don't like it. Both Arkuzawa and I (similar paths in DR and Koryu) brought the use of energy and change past the one-step Japanese model into much broader work. I don't move or do the exact same things as Ark-It was just worh mentioning as he faced similar narrow minded restrictions with the Japanese in similar arts.
I can't support the DR training model and the self limiting expression of it. In and of itself they will forever remain, less-than, or limited in their own potential with the energies expressed in their own freakin art. Their spiraling is too small, does not involve the level of tissue involment it could, some who do it cut it off and limit is with their sue of their own hips. They missed it, but have some power and the uneducated (with rank) call it good when it is not, some who skip over breath work, others who have some decent power, yet fail past ther first step (their bodies do not really know how to maintain the connections in fluid motion- It's a shame really.
Dan
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby gregstec on Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:20 am

Bodywork wrote:I can't support the DR training model and the self limiting expression of it. In and of itself they will forever remain, less-than, or limited in their own potential with the energies expressed in their own freakin art. Their spiraling is too small, does not involve the level of tissue involment it could, some who do it cut it off and limit is with their sue of their own hips. They missed it, but have some power and the uneducated (with rank) call it good when it is not, some who skip over breath work, others who have some decent power, yet fail past ther first step (their bodies do not really know how to maintain the connections in fluid motion- It's a shame really.
Dan


And then there are a few that realized there is more and have reached out to others for guidance :)

Greg
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby Tom on Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:36 am

gregstec wrote:And then there are a few that realized there is more and have reached out to others for guidance :)

Greg


Great blazing balls of qi, there's another aikibunny in the house!

Hey Greg, welcome. 8-)
Ku jin gan lai (苦尽甘来).
After bitter, the sweet comes.
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby gregstec on Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:07 pm

Tom wrote:
gregstec wrote:And then there are a few that realized there is more and have reached out to others for guidance :)

Greg


Great blazing balls of qi, there's another aikibunny in the house!

Hey Greg, welcome. 8-)


Aikibunny! - come over here and grab my wrist, I will show you what bunny is all out! ;D
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby ors on Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:58 am

Dear Dan!

That was an interesting answer.

hearing the terms aiki-age and aiki-sage and the energy explained and described in Chinese


Do you know, what was the "jins" described this way by him? "Shun" and "ni" energies? That would make sense, I think...

To be clear I have not seen (nor do I know of) anyone in DR take the body skill to the area of work I have.

Have you met the "one and only" inheritor of Sagawa, Kimura as well? It is said that he is the only one who has got "aiki" from his teacher...

I can't support the DR training model and the self limiting expression of it....


The truth is, that what you have described here and above of this part, we can easily say to the taiji circles... No real fight training, no real fighting experience "stucking in" the tuishou world...

Shame as well... But! After some time I can understand those men. The experience what they get from their training makes them turn away from fighting, I think. There are much more to get from right training than the fighting skills, how I see. Feng Zhiqiang is a perfect example for the changing of reasons behind training.

Cheers!

Örs
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby AllanF on Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:45 pm

ors wrote:Dear Dan!

That was an interesting answer.

hearing the terms aiki-age and aiki-sage and the energy explained and described in Chinese


Do you know, what was the "jins" described this way by him? "Shun" and "ni" energies? That would make sense, I think...


I always thought that aiki-age was "peng" and aiki-sage was "an".

ors wrote:
I can't support the DR training model and the self limiting expression of it....


The truth is, that what you have described here and above of this part, we can easily say to the taiji circles... No real fight training, no real fighting experience "stucking in" the tuishou world...

Shame as well... But! After some time I can understand those men. The experience what they get from their training makes them turn away from fighting, I think. There are much more to get from right training than the fighting skills, how I see. Feng Zhiqiang is a perfect example for the changing of reasons behind training.

Cheers!

Örs


I would agree that in taiji 99% of people just stick to the tui shou training model and though i understand its worth it is not fighting, even in free form. That said i think it should be easy enough to introduce striking and initial contact if participants are willing...but there is the problem more often than not participants are not willing to go beyond their comfort zone. At least in my experience even in China.
AllanF

 

Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby Daniel-san on Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:12 am

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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:56 am

Interesting comparisons of TCC and DR. For nearly 50 years time, I have heard my primary teacher, Lee Wing-Wah, repeatedly express his personal opinion that the best high levels skills in soft/internal style martial arts are similarly found in the classical schools of traditional Tai-Chi Chuan, Pa-Kua Chuan, Hsing-I Chuan, Aikijutsu, and Jiujitsu. 8-)

Image

from http://www.neijia.com/JinVector.jpg
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby Bodywork on Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:40 am

Hey Doc
As said previously, I heard the same thing from the Taiji teacher I mentioned -who had 11 years teaching experience in Japan-including teaching two Aikijujutsu guys (who were under one of the best in that art).
I wouldn't agree with that neijia list model- though I've seen that one-legged army idea before. Weight on one foot misses the optimum potential, a one legged army never does well you know. ;D I'd also be seriously considerng carrying the weight from each leg to the opposite hand. Kokyu (to me) is not a one-line path -its infinity. ;) And jin-force vectors are not that simple either-those paths are really something far more complex; They are double spiraling arcs that involve a lot of body tissue (including the breath) and create potential force vectors everywhere at once, and each is supported by an opposite or counter so you can generate power out from the center without losing your center in the process. Spiral energy is a very efficient way to do that.
Dan
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby somatai on Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:22 am

nice!
somatai

 

Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:40 am

Bodywork wrote:Hey Doc
As said previously, I heard the same thing from the Taiji teacher I mentioned -who had 11 years teaching experience in Japan-including teaching two Aikijujutsu guys (who were under one of the best in that art).
I wouldn't agree with that neijia list model- though I've seen that one-legged army idea before. Weight on one foot misses the optimum potential, a one legged army never does well you know. ;D I'd also be seriously considerng carrying the weight from each leg to the opposite hand. Kokyu (to me) is not a one-line path -its infinity. ;) And jin-force vectors are not that simple either-those paths are really something far more complex; They are double spiraling arcs that involve a lot of body tissue (including the breath) and create potential force vectors everywhere at once, and each is supported by an opposite or counter so you can generate power out from the center without losing your center in the process. Spiral energy is a very efficient way to do that.
Dan

Hi Dan:

Understood and agreed. The graphic posted is but one popular paradigm model, not necessarily your model or mine, and not necessarily the correct model, but one which some practitioners subscribe to. Of course, I personally agree that spiraling energy dynamics are more efficient.

Also, bear in mind that Sifu Lee is a very elderly man, and that his contacts with the Japanese arts he includes in his nei-jia list were primarily during the 1920's and 1930's. His recollection is that the Japanese he fought who used those arts, as practiced at that time, were definitely not a "one-legged army".

Doc
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby Buddy on Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:22 pm

Very nice discussion, gentlemen.
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby AllanF on Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:07 pm

The following was posted over at Aikiweb on the topic of this very thread and though, unfortunately, the thread went south faster than swallows in winter, i thought i would pull a couple of bits from it. In the hope that it can generate a stimulating and civil discussion over here.

Firstly i would like to apologize to the chaps over there whose posts i have nicked without permission...fingers crossed it will benefit all in the long run...

"The go up through the soleus/rear-groin/psoas/dantien/center line on the 'inside/front' of the body
Then 'choose' with bodyskill how to combine them to 'meet' in a useful way with the center/intent/dantien area. Which one is up and which one is the down... is 'up' to you?

More interesting would have been is these question'
re: "where is the middle, where the up and down meet"
Do all arts have the same answer to this question?
Are there 'standard' answers to this question in JPN and CN arts? Is one more likely to 'answer' it in one way or the other?
How does 6-harmony movement answer this? How does Aikido/DR answer this?
/random thoughts"


The above were for me interesting questions that would be interesting in exploring,
Regarding the "middle" for me the middle is the 'dantian' but though all the text books say this i am finding in my own research...though of course it is a work in progress open to revision...that the middle is actually lower than the physical location for the dantian, i would place it at the 'huiyin' point. As one of the reasons i posted this clip in the first place was because i am interested in finding a way to continue progressing in my training without causing damage to my dodge knee. Much to my joy, i feel that if i focus on the huiyin point as the centre and also as the centre of the circle around which my spine/central axis moves the pressure in the knees is released. Not only that but the hips open naturally and thus movement/power flows freely where i want it to go. (Though i will be testing that with my teacher this afternoon).

Any thoughts on the 6 harmonies etc?

Allan
Last edited by AllanF on Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby AllanF on Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:33 pm

"i think we need to strip everything down to the basic. if you look at the human body (for you folks who are aliens among us, please ignore this, because it won't apply to you) , we are basically a bundle of sticks, tied together with sinew and muscle and fat, wrapped with fascia, and covered with hide and hair. then controlled by a sophisticate computer with vast neural networks. our basic configuration isn't optimal for staying up-right, much less doing anything else.
so most of the time, our muscles tried to keep us up-right. our muscle fiber pulls, do not push. most of the times our muscles worked against each other to keep us up-right, and we are in a precarious balancing act all the time. so, some of the main equations we need to solve are,
1. how do we deal with incoming force?
2. how do we efficiently generate and focus a force?
3. how do we maintain balance, whether we are on our feet or our back or ..., while doing the above two points?

regardless the origin of the IS, whether from Chinese or Japanese or Swahili or wherever, they all have to deal with such questions above; they all have to deal with how human body constructed and its limitations. then there is various physical laws that we have to abide on this world, for example, gravity.

how do you deal with incoming force? spread it out to as much surface area as you can. the earth has large surface if your feet are on it, a big wall if your back is against it, another person if that person happens to be within reach, and so on. in order to do that, you have to take all the slacks out of your body (bundle of sticks, ... remember?). how do you take the slacks our of your body? winding, tightening, binding your whole body into one unit so it can distribute force through your entire body and to whatever that body touches.

how do we efficiently generate and focus a force? straight muscle, but we have counter-balance muscle which oppose; thus, lessen the generated force. what-if we could lessen the counter-balancing affect and using every muscle, sinew, fascia, skin, hair, bone, pretty much our entire body to perform an action, for example, picking up a glass of water. if we can do that, then we can throw, kick, punch, lift, walk, run, kiss, and so on with our entire being; thus, we have "one moves all move".

how do we maintain balance while doing 1 and 2? every force has an equal and opposing force to stay neutral, thus in balance. a push toward the front, need an equal push toward the back. a push up needs an opposing push down, your body is in the middle.

since our body controls by a computer and neural network, that's where the whole mind/intent comes about. so the first part is to train your body to become one unit that can do as the mind directed. most folks methink could spend their lifetime on learning how-to taking the slack out of their body. then the next is how-to generate power with their body, by taking the slack out of their body in segment so that power generate like a whip through their entire body, and at the point of release, their entire body now have no slack but full of power. now do all of that with your will. " [emphasis add myself]

The openning statement of this post is one that i am very interesting in also...i.e.stripping training down to the essentials for the most efficient way of training.

As i have previously mentioned due to a dicky knee i am now constantly reviewing and revising what it is exactly i am meant to be training when doing taiji? And why? As a result of my own experimentation and after reading the thoughts of the good laddies and lassies here i am devising a routine in order to help progress my training.

At the moment i have 6 standing movements:
1) Wuji shi to stretch/open the spine vertically,
2) 'Da' shi...arms out to the side, sitting in a high mabu like the Chinese character "大" to stretch/open the arms and also to connect opposite hands and feet.
3) 1 hand up the other down and behind the back like in this pic: (http://vod.xywy.cc/system/uploadimg/vid ... 5_2961.jpg) to stretch/open the ribs spine/lumbar region and exercise the muscles wrapping the spine.
4) Pi shen chui, from the chen taijiquan to develop the yao and chousijin/peng etc. There is a video clip of "BorisChen" on youtube doing it in his "Chen taiji qigong" clip (i can't post the link as my hotspot shield isn't working at the moment)
5) Li Chugong's clip on this thread, again to work spiraling energy and make sure my knees are in correct alignment.
6) Having one hand raised (as if receiving and incoming force) relaxing the body from that raised hand down into the opposite foot, thus creating a 'steel wire thread' internally and turning via the huiyin point to develop 'chousijin'.

Further to that i also do some dantian rotations and a series of qigong to improve breathing etc.

In the spirit of development i would be interested in getting peoples thoughts on these exercises and any additional exercises that you may have found beneficial in your own research.

Merry Christmas one and all
Allan
Last edited by AllanF on Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Translation appreciated!

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:45 am

Sorry for the NECRO-Threading but I was searching for something else and I came across this old thread; and this post by Dan is another good description of what's called 'Zhuanhuan' in CIMA:
Bodywork wrote:Hi Allen
I would tend to agree about the knee winding translation. but he might be showing some deeper things (I don't know Chinese).
Twining the knees is indicative of the hips being tied to them, (this is how most people move, and it is more pronounced in western fighters)all in all it's something which I would avoid. Coiling or winding is an accurate statement but mores the point is what is coiling from where. I think it's very important to understand that the legs are coiling and the feet are stable and grab the earth. The feet rock most often because the knees pull them out of line. and its the hips that pull the kness out of line. The bones of the legs need to remain stable and the muscles are pulled coiling up and opening on one side and coiling and winding down on the other. But the bones stay straight and therefore the feet are stable. If anything the knees may go back and forth (like in and out from front to back) but never are they pulled with the coiling as to sway side to side with the hips. Twining the knees weakens the peng and in training it also can hurt the knees over time. Proper coiling makes VERY strong and stable knees that function independant from the hips. they are held stable by opposing spirals from the feet up through the kua drawn by the dantian, turned by the waist and supported be the lower back (with the psoas). Trainng this way stabilizies the entire chain, so walking and being "rocked" by uneven terrain (like he comically tries to demonstrate at the end when he is mimicing a stumble) is less likely.

Video: you might want to watch the first part as he is deliberatly moving wrong and showing how the bad connections I outlined above look. and how they will pull and rock the feet and weaken the knees. Something else to consider is this collapse is the fuck-up you see so much in modern Goju and Uechi ryu kata.
If you look at the correct pull with the dantian at 1:10 you will see the waist and upper sternum connection turning (this is the central axis) and that the hips do not move as much as the waist. He opening and rising on his left while closing and sinking on the right. Thus he is in balance.
At about 1:30 the guy to his left (in the black and white track suit) shows a more complete spiral with the shoulders staying down and neutral and the arms potentially sending while drawing with the elbows sinking.
You also might want to consider that Hong considered chansi-jin to be more in line with "the one jin," and not rooting and bouncing out. I think a better discussion is how these simple mechanics lead to avoiding double weighting and a much better set of usable skills that are more inclusive and complex than a simple ground path.
Anyway, the pulling is an additive quality to the coiling; pulling up by the psoas through the kua and turned through the waist it gets joined with the spine and the arms into the hands. Thus your feet...are in your hands. Side benefits are that the hands connect to the feet across the body left to right. This avoids the classic one-side weighted so often used in throwing people. With coiling happening around the spine people have a bitch of a time finding your weight and center.

There are much more complicated and fun things to work on such as being able to shear in the kua; one spiral, from the other, splitting at the kua, and the fajin it creates. And this without dedicating to a fajin! This also contributes to in /out, up/ down, and the ability to "change" force at speed; not to mention heavy hands and kicks with no wind up. Again after you really start to get into years of doing this it increasingly involves more tissue, and as you do it continually you loosen up...and then....more tissue gets involved... till it starts to attain a real snapping quality. Then you can add the fact that the body moves in these coilings which in and of themselves then wrap around the bodies central axis and thus become spiraling continuous arcs. Any point along each arc can then have a positive and negative side to it. A yin and yang held in balance without you doing something dedicated on either side. Then again you can offer continuous pivots to any contact point with their own yin and yang involved. What I am telling you here is gold- for fighting and moving; It's also great with grapplers trying to get in for kuzushi while you are left to "change" every contact point and rain punches and kicks and set-ups of your own.
It would be interesting to hear -his- explanations. I've heard some of LCD's (also of the Hong line) and some of the Joe Chens. LCD moves very free and loose, then wham!
I would You tube LCD as well.
Cheers
Dan

Wu Yuxiang (1812-1880) learned Taijiquan from Yang Lushan and later Chen family TJQ from Chen Qingping. This is a text that he and his brother attributed to Wong Zong-Yue but for argument sake people have just said that he wrote it:

蓄劲如开弓,发劲如放箭。
Xu jin ru kai gong, Fajin ru fang jian.
Building up force (jin) as if pulling back the string of a bow, Emitting the force (jin) as if releasing the arrow.

曲中求直,蓄而后发。
Qu zhong qiu zhi, xu erhou fa.
As the straight is bent or curved, Gathering (force) then Emitting (fa).

力由脊发,步随身换。
Li you ji fa, bu sui shen huan.
Power comes from the spinal column emitting (force), the changes of the body go along with the stepping.

收即是放,连而不断。
Shou ji shi fang, Lian er bu duan.
Being close [to the opponent] to be free, link up [with the opponent] then never break.

往复须有折叠,进退须有转换
Wangfu xu you Zhedie; Jintui xu you Zhuanhuan.
Going out and coming back must use 'Zhedie'. Entering and exiting must use 'Zhuanhuan'.

The key words being Zhedie and Zhuanhuan, which are two names for biomechanics that create Internally-derived power. They're also referred to as vertical (shu) and horizontal (heng) power of the torso.


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