Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby bailewen on Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:30 am

bruce wrote:well i agree with your description of what was shown ... i just think it is normal and a similar method to the way i was taught.


Adam S wrote:With Bruce

Yes a good clip

But pretty standard stuff & how we practice here


Perhaps I'm just seeing something deeper or maybe people have just been hiding their clips. I keep watching this and thinking about stuff I see in, for example, many of the Aunkai clips or certain other groups from time to time where nearly everybody in the room raises their hand and says that, "Of course we do that too....all the time...."

If it's so common, I have to wonder why I have never really seen any other clips demonstrating the particular quality I believe I am seeing here. The closest I can think of is actually Sam Chin's stuff but his is actually, IMO, more subtle and mostly highlights his very particular kind of stickiness and unbalancing. Extremely hard to understand what he really does. I have seen clips of Bruce's where he is, superficially, doing the same thing but really that means he's not doing the same thing at all. Bruce, (to address you directly now) I have seen that you certainly do like to mix up all sorts of striking and grappling and pushing and all that together in your push hands but .... and this really is no insult, I just don't think what you actually do is very similar to this guy at all. It's not an insult because I think that this guy is particularly good. I'd have a blast taking classes from. From you...I'd have a blast practicing together with you. This guy, OTOH, would be not so much a training partner as an instructor or, as he seems really down to earth, maybe more of a coach.

The only thing that I don't like about the clip at all is that particular pattern they always fall into for their "freestyle". It's basically a repetition back and forth of the opening move of 99% of all Taiji forms,"Raise hands". As I have said countless times before, I think that that particular version of the commencement is overly slow and keep wondering why, instead of always raising up under the double palms placed on the chest, nobody every "swallows" the palms and locks the arms. The alternative would be if the person is not expressing power through the palms but rather through the fingertips in which case, instead of swallowing from above, you would sink below it and simply push out with the fingertips. The way they are doing it it smells, to me, of chasing hands. I expect the big guy would have a wonderful answer to my question and handle my tactic just fine because he looks very skilled to me but nevertheless, I always wonder why I never see it done.

Ironically, the only youtube thing that has come close to what I am trying to explain was also posted by Tajikid a few years back. Not exactly what I am saying but close enough to get the idea across.
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby Taijikid on Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:34 pm

Yes! Bailewen.

Its the quality that came across that makes the differences. The Shen-fa (body method?) changes show he knows his stuff. The taking of the center, change of distances (a lot closer distances than some other clips) shows that he is far superior than his opponents and knows the body positioning, reactions, techniques etc. By the way, he shares and teaches well!

I am beginning to think that Australia may have some very good Chinese Martial Artist immigrant there, may be more so than the USA. For a while there were a lot of Chinese immigration to Australia in the 60's and 70's as it was (and still is) very difficult to immigrate to the United States.
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby enricos on Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:12 pm

Does anyone know the name of this guy and where he is located in Australia ?
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby 64Palms on Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:29 pm

His name is Wayne Hansen - he teaches in Queensland and (i believe) was taught by Eric Fitzgerald.

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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby 64Palms on Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:41 pm

In addition (responding to Taijikid),

We have a huge Chinese population in Australia, especially on the East Coast. During the 60's - 70's immigration was mainly from Hong Kong / South (as we are part of the commonwealth), Malaysia, and some Taiwanese. Now we have many Chinese immigrating from mainland as politically we have a decent relationship with China. Australia is simply a colonised part of South-East Asia (hence often called Australasia). We are quite fortunate to have such proximity to all of Asia. Having said that the best martial artists (that i have encountered) in Australia are non-Chinese.
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby bailewen on Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:28 pm

Well it makes sense from here. It's vastly easier for mainlanders to get Visa's to Australia as compared to the UK or the US. Since Australia is English speaking, people tend to forget how close it is to China. Same time zone even.
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby Taijikid on Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:32 pm

Thanks 64 Palms,

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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby bruce on Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:14 am

bailewen wrote:
bruce wrote:well i agree with your description of what was shown ... i just think it is normal and a similar method to the way i was taught.


Adam S wrote:With Bruce

Yes a good clip

But pretty standard stuff & how we practice here


Perhaps I'm just seeing something deeper or maybe people have just been hiding their clips. I keep watching this and thinking about stuff I see in, for example, many of the Aunkai clips or certain other groups from time to time where nearly everybody in the room raises their hand and says that, "Of course we do that too....all the time...."

If it's so common, I have to wonder why I have never really seen any other clips demonstrating the particular quality I believe I am seeing here. The closest I can think of is actually Sam Chin's stuff but his is actually, IMO, more subtle and mostly highlights his very particular kind of stickiness and unbalancing. Extremely hard to understand what he really does. I have seen clips of Bruce's where he is, superficially, doing the same thing but really that means he's not doing the same thing at all. Bruce, (to address you directly now) I have seen that you certainly do like to mix up all sorts of striking and grappling and pushing and all that together in your push hands but .... and this really is no insult, I just don't think what you actually do is very similar to this guy at all. It's not an insult because I think that this guy is particularly good. I'd have a blast taking classes from. From you...I'd have a blast practicing together with you. This guy, OTOH, would be not so much a training partner as an instructor or, as he seems really down to earth, maybe more of a coach.

The only thing that I don't like about the clip at all is that particular pattern they always fall into for their "freestyle". It's basically a repetition back and forth of the opening move of 99% of all Taiji forms,"Raise hands". As I have said countless times before, I think that that particular version of the commencement is overly slow and keep wondering why, instead of always raising up under the double palms placed on the chest, nobody every "swallows" the palms and locks the arms. The alternative would be if the person is not expressing power through the palms but rather through the fingertips in which case, instead of swallowing from above, you would sink below it and simply push out with the fingertips. The way they are doing it it smells, to me, of chasing hands. I expect the big guy would have a wonderful answer to my question and handle my tactic just fine because he looks very skilled to me but nevertheless, I always wonder why I never see it done.

Ironically, the only youtube thing that has come close to what I am trying to explain was also posted by Tajikid a few years back. Not exactly what I am saying but close enough to get the idea across.


i am not insulted :-) lol ...

the man has been practicing for many more years than i have, i think if you look at his clips from the 80's and compare you will see a lack of refinement in the older ones and in the newer ones you will see new skill sets that had developed over those decades.

all i am saying is even if my skill is not up there many of the things he is showing are basic things that i was taught. i am in no way saying i or he is better or worse and i do think that most push hands you see on youtube is lacking and what he shows is pretty cool. it just reminded me of my training.

how do you think i am superficially doing the same thing? maybe i am just doing it with less skill level and refinement that wayne hansen ...

one thing i have understood about more recently is controlling the center better as i attack. meaning i am exploring more off balancing methods in my attacks.

nyc is calling me ... gotta go play .. type at ya later.
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby bailewen on Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:55 am

Bruce,

I was thinking about what I posted and I think that the problem is in the semantics. I said that I really enjoyed "the way he incoporates...."

It occurred to me, somewhat after the fact, that "....the way..." is typically interpreted to mean simply, "...the fact that..." and in that sense, you certainly do the same thing. But what I was trying to describe was not simply the fact that he incorporates all that but rather the actual specific "way" that he does so. His specific method of incorporating striking into his push hands. That particular way of doing things, I find particularly rare.

all i am saying is even if my skill is not up there many of the things he is showing are basic things that i was taught. i am in no way saying i or he is better or worse and i do think that most push hands you see on youtube is lacking and what he shows is pretty cool. it just reminded me of my training.

Well that is certainly a valid point of view. I can see from your clips how you may be striving to do some of the things he does. I just meant that simply incorporating those aspects does not mean that one has actually incorporated those aspects.

Just for the record, I do not especially like that other "heaven earth man" guy. He's pretty good but really not at the level of the guy who's clips inspired this thread.
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:20 pm

i am sitting here running my hand through my thick lusterous hair wondering how i could be mistaken as one of these three baldies.
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby Taijikid on Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:00 am

So, Wayne, are you tennytigers who put up the video clips and not the bald gentleman from Penang?
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:36 am

yes i am
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby willywrong on Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:59 pm

bruce wrote: The only thing that I don't like about the clip at all is that particular pattern they always fall into for their "freestyle". It's basically a repetition back and forth of the opening move of 99% of all Taiji forms,"Raise hands". As I have said countless times before, I think that that particular version of the commencement is overly slow and keep wondering why, instead of always raising up under the double palms placed on the chest, nobody every "swallows" the palms and locks the arms. The alternative would be if the person is not expressing power through the palms but rather through the fingertips in which case, instead of swallowing from above, you would sink below it and simply push out with the fingertips. The way they are doing it it smells, to me, of chasing hands. I expect the big guy would have a wonderful answer to my question and handle my tactic just fine because he looks very skilled to me but nevertheless, I always wonder why I never see it done.
Ironically, the only youtube thing that has come close to what I am trying to explain was also posted by Tajikid a few years back. Not exactly what I am saying but close enough to get the idea across.

It’s difficult to visualize what you’re saying above but the freestyle shown is not fighting but a freestyle practise of the 4 ounce principle of tai chi incorporating push hands exercises let loose. When pushing on the body the idea is to keep the junior player correctly aligned and not really about tossing them about. It really easy to toss someone about but this halts the process of learning the 4 ounce principle. Whenever strength is used the body seeks an inert state (double weightiness). From this type of practise applications from all the Tai Chi forms can manifest. This is only a small but very important part of the tai chi curriculum.
The skill sort is folding in Tai Chi. The type of folding is a useful combat skill usually arrived at thru two person drills sets. There are strict criteria for practise as in my understanding the skill will not manifest without these criteria being adhered to.
The rules followed for acquiring this skill are known as the 4 ounce principle as explained by Cheng Man-Ching to R W Smith state that one must not allow an opponent to put more than 4 ounces on you and you must not put more than 4 ounces on them. The method followed is to neither resist nor let go while adhering to the above principle.
If one follows the above rules in say single armed pushing there is no clashing at the commencement when the arms are conjoined this is adhering skill. At this point one has to give up one self and listen to the opponent’s energy. When his direction of force is perceived one must run in the direction that his energy is actually going if one doesn’t one will resist and violate the principle, if one breaks contact one violates the rule of nor let go. This is called listening skill. Running leads to neutralizing skill at which point their energy must return to its source, then one follows which leads to sticking skill. There is no attacking in this process of learning. From sticking practise one arrives at folding skill.
When using folding all the proceeding skills are present for folding to occur.
At each stage in the process the wrong state of mind or attitude negates the process of development. Anyway that’s about the best I can do using words as the proper transmission of the processes is really only possible on a one to one basis.
bruce wrote:the man has been practicing for many more years than i have, i think if you look at his clips from the 80's and compare you will see a lack of refinement in the older ones and in the newer ones you will see new skill sets that had developed over those decades.
how do you think i am superficially doing the same thing? maybe i am just doing it with less skill level and refinement that wayne hansen ...

Your above assumption is incorrect as the video is not of Wayne Hansen
My apologies if I sound confusing.
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby ashe on Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:36 pm

bailewen wrote:The closest I can think of is actually Sam Chin's stuff but his is actually, IMO, more subtle and mostly highlights his very particular kind of stickiness and unbalancing. Extremely hard to understand what he really does.


good call. and you're right that we don't have many clips up that really show it. this is probably the closest comparison in that it's spinning training but (with some off balancing and some striking in to the body / shoulders and legs) but the emphasis is still not on the striking itself but is a necessary component to add in, in order to train the open and close in the body.

some of it is it wouldn't make very interesting video.

usually when you're training spinning hands, if the partner has the same obvious gap then you'll strike in slowly to show them the gap and give them a good opportunity to try and manifest the right energy to the point, but you don't really want to interrupt the spinning process too much, so the process of finding the gaps and exploiting them is really more reserved for our sticky hands training, which we really have no clips on youtube that show that training at all, mostly because not many people have gotten to the level that they can competently display that skill / training yet, and the ones that have aren't that keen on throwing themselves on video.

for instance it's taken me until recently where i can competently show some of the training for the moving step spinning hand, which is still one level removed from the sticky hand.

another reason it's not so overt in some of the clips we have up so far is it wouldn't really look like spinning hands anymore. you just touch and then flow into the gap,like 1:43 in this OLD clip. ;)
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Re: Nice Series of Push hand from Australia

Postby bailewen on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:10 pm

willywrong wrote:
bailewen wrote: The only thing that I don't like about the clip at all is that particular pattern they always fall into for their "freestyle". It's basically a repetition back and forth of the opening move of 99% of all Taiji forms,"Raise hands". As I have said countless times before, I think that that particular version of the commencement is overly slow and keep wondering why, instead of always raising up under the double palms placed on the chest, nobody every "swallows" the palms and locks the arms. The alternative would be if the person is not expressing power through the palms but rather through the fingertips in which case, instead of swallowing from above, you would sink below it and simply push out with the fingertips. The way they are doing it it smells, to me, of chasing hands. I expect the big guy would have a wonderful answer to my question and handle my tactic just fine because he looks very skilled to me but nevertheless, I always wonder why I never see it done.
Ironically, the only youtube thing that has come close to what I am trying to explain was also posted by Tajikid a few years back. Not exactly what I am saying but close enough to get the idea across.

It’s difficult to visualize what you’re saying above but the freestyle shown is not fighting but a freestyle practise ...


I have been wishing for years that I had a partner around to video the application I am talking about because it comes up again and again. Basically, whenever the push to the chest happens, I always see the same method being used to deal with it. First, the "defenders" hands are raised up under the attackers hands lifting them up off the chest and rolling them off to either side. Both of the defenders hands rise up the middle and end up on top of the "attackers" forearms pressing them down. It's the most standard application out there for the move "raise hands". Usually the follow up is either to pull down on the persons arms bringing them off balance or, alternately as in your clip, to respond with a chest push of your own.

My argument is the the raising up of the hands through the middle using the top of the wrists to deflect the initial push is wasteful and unnecessary. You can simply sink down and go straight to the counter-attack. By eliminating the transitional deflection, you get the opportunity to attack quickly an more effectively. By constantly repeating this "wrong" pattern, I worry that the response will get ingrained.
When pushing on the body the idea is to keep the junior player correctly aligned and not really about tossing them about. It really easy to toss someone about but this halts the process of learning the 4 ounce principle.

This part I can really agree with. My comments are less about the practitioners in the clip and more about a particular application that I don't like and feel should not always be so emphasized. IMO, when someone pushes on your right shoulder, turning to the right is the wrong direction to yield. You end up yielding your way right into a dead end that way.


In the Spinning Hands that Ashe learned from Sam, there is no transition to the push to begin with. The entire focus is different. In the first level of the exercise I was shown a couple years ago in Xi'an, the "goal" as it were, is simply to try and maintain the top position. It felt to me like a really great way to develop tremendously powerful "an" jin. (press) or perhaps more accurately, "fu gai" or "covering energy". It's another concept I have learned in Taiji that is similar to "swallowing". The spinning hands, at that level anyways, doesn't really have pushing or off-balancing in it as a goal that I was able to see. Other versions do but the one I did seemed like it was more just about developing stickiness and giving and entry way into a certain kind of control.
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