Ma Hong

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Re: Ma Hong

Postby Alexander on Sat May 29, 2010 6:30 pm

SteveBonzak wrote:
Alexander wrote:
Josealb wrote:I completely agree with Kshurika. Sun Lu Tang couldnt take a seasoned MMA guy because, well, human bodies are so much different now than what they used to be back then. Humans have more movement range now also, anatomically speaking.

Way over Suns league.

::)


What? Human bodies are the exact same as they were 5,000 years ago.

I don't understand or agree with what you're saying.. could you please clarify? The training is obviously different -- simply weight lifting and having a high level of conditioning can make you win in a large percentage of scuffles.


You clearly missed the eye rolling that indicated sarcasm in that statement. ::)

-Steve


D'oh! ;D
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby Josealb on Sat May 29, 2010 6:53 pm

;D
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby gzregorz on Sat May 29, 2010 11:50 pm

Bodywork wrote:interesting quote Allen! ;)
I think your own comments -as well as interlopers- are spot on. Stan's "one liners" don't help him make his points but his points about taiji players and MMA fighting is accurate. FWIW, he wasn't saying something against WHJ as someone thought- he is a student of his, he was makng observations about them using IP in the more stressful venue of MMA. He has seen me do MMA and he has seen me with a few master class Chen guys in an I.P testing format, so he has some opinions from that exposure. I am trying to make more positive comments of both MMA and I.P.! I happen to think it would all come together -if- the Chen guys, and any traditional IP arts for that matter, got into that type of training within their respective arts. IOW, soft or Internal power is highly effective if:
a) you actually HAVE internal power
b) you train and learn to do MMA.

At the last seminar I did, that school had an outside BJJ and MMA coach with an established competition and fight record in BJJ and MMA. He was training them once a week. Not only was he untinterested in coming to the seminar, he made some rather dismissive comments about soft training. He showed up for an hour to watch out of what he said was "Just curiousity." So I waived the hello's, took him on the mat and went at; first letting him try to take me down for about fifteen minutes (he got thrown for his trouble repeatedly) then we added punches, kicks, and everything else for another fifteen till he called it quits. Let's just say he might have had trouble going to work Monday looking like he did.

I continue to say that the problem with the soft arts is not the principles and conditioning that gain you internal power. The real problem is that the vast majority really do not-HAVE-internal power in the first place. And in the second place, they have never fought a real fight a day in their lives. So, even were they to "get" internal power to one degree or another at some point in their lives, they wouldn't have fecking clue how to use it under pressure. Therefore any serious MAer looks at them and dismisses them...and rightly so. As most guys who do MMA know; just the mental aspects of playing someone adds a pressure that can take apart people who havenlt trained in freestyle. And you can only learn to create and deal with that type of pressure "by going there," not by imagining you get it.

I have hope and confidance in the internal arts ability to deliver, simply because I trained in soft arts WHILE still doing jujutsu and MMA. So I have every hope that anyone who wanted to could do the same-many even better if they start younger. I think if you took some of the top Chen players, or any other top IP guys and taught them how to "really" fight AND then trained them -in fights; people would be very surprised with what could be developed- not the least of which might be the traditional IP guys themselves. Granted they would have to change their end goals, and the "way" they fought, but they would not have to change their principles and IP one whit. I.P. used in MMA allows you to do things that screws with normaly trained guys and gives significant advantages. IP was tailor made for jujutsu. More's the point if you really know what the hell you are talking about in the first place-it allows you to hit and kick like a fecking truck with no wind up, and repeatedly so on the inside, and makes you very hard to throw, all of which makes you one tough son of a bitch to fight. Past that it is up to any individual to reach certain goals; add talent, training, fight experience, yadda, yadda, and you would have a new way to look at the I.P. arts.

The MMA get you competant relatively fast, (most) guys are in and out in 5 years or so, and I.P takes longer but there is no reason you cannot train both is there? I.P. people can rightly say that they will be stronger in later years, but we have to fair in saying that they are on their feet training in those later years, where most external guys are not, because of the intense nature of that work, they quit.
Mark my words, there will be an increasing interest in senior jujutsu/ MMA "training" that is less intense but allows seniors to keep their game. Just wait.

Almost forgot, the guy who doubted soft power at the seminar? He stayed all weekend and took Monday off of work to train it some more. Now as he is coaching them in how to fight- they, as a group are training I.P.
It is his opinion that it is "freakishly effective" and he wants to get it.
Dan


Nice post.
"There is more wisdom in your body than in your deepest philosophy." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby Bodywork on Sun May 30, 2010 8:35 am

Thanks, but it doesn't really matter much does it?
The reason for the many debates over I.P. and MMA is ignorance -true lack of understanding of the subject itself. It is clear that many, if not most here arguing the point, don't have or understand I.P. or they would clearly see how easy it is to use in ANY form of fighting. That sounds arrogant and you have my apologies to sound so, but I think it’s so glaringly obvious that it needs to be said and it speaks for itself.
From what I have read, what I have seen, and more and more what I feel in the ICMA practitioners- those people really don't have a clue how to bridge the gap between I.P. and fighting with it, because:
a) They don't have I.P. in the first place so they can't feel the potential for universal application
b) They don't know how to actually fight, so they can't see how it is a natural fit.

Were anyone to have both...then it's just not debatable...it's freaking obvious.

I think it increasingly obvious that most see IP as a collection of "movements," they then look at and examine those various "movements" (techniques, forms, applications) and rightfully doubt whether those "movement" will work in MMA. So what I see is mostly a debate over "movements" and not power.
Why is that pivotal?
Because power is power. And no one would argue the value of real power in a fight. Just like no one argues good cardio or being in good shape. Who the hell will argue the value of "heavy hands," true knock out power with a boxer? You would be pegged as the idiot in the room. So the real true debate is a power. Power and slippery strength is something that BJJ, MMA, and Judo-ka understand instantly. How's that? Because connected power makes you one tough son-of-a-bitch to throw, all while you are towing them, and also makes you hit and kick like a feckin truck.
Anyone arguing the successful use of that in a fight just hasn't been in one........or is not worth debating with in the first place.

Internal power used only in classical arts will not transcend to MMA.
Once we can agree to get past being "locked to form" .....then I think internal power is the greatest advantage in training. Why past form? Because classical form is not going to work in MMA, and it is not where real I.P. comes to the fore anyway.
Something as simple as a stand off game of pick-apart; through feinting and head hunting will take out most IP masters. That said people continue to forget that internal power is stand alone connection and power and anyone who truly has it (to one degree or another) can be trained to actually fight a fighter’s game with it. FWIW, I've not met the man who has successfully argued against the value of internal power in MMA freestyle fighting with me in person. It is THAT obvious in use to all concerned. On the net I am willing to discuss it but I have no intention of arguing something they clearly and obviously do not have in the first place. If they did, there would be no argument.
I think the greatest thing that could happen is to get the Chen guys and the Bagua guys (who actually have Internal Power) to learn to fight MMA and then see what happens to judgments of value. For that reason I can enjoy IP displayed in a classical form for what it is, and not compare it to MMA, but yet still see and understand the potential for use in MMA that exists were that guy to choose to go there.

The answer to the riddle
The first thing people need to do is to look at IP as a means of conditioning the body that has nothing to do with being bound to single arts. Once that realization is in place they can start to free their minds and understand that grappling and striking is "universal" and without form and that internal power is perfectly engineered to fit into any form of it
A-N-Y F-O-R-M.
As long as we continue to look at IP as an art, we will get stuck. We need to look at it a shen fa only; as a Mind / body connection to strengthen tissue and whole body power and in continuing to use methods to strengthen that connection. That connection then becomes a driver for better ways to move in any form of fighting we choose. For me I really could care less about preserving arts "movements." I am hell bent on using I.P. in the modern era in modern formats.
Last edited by Bodywork on Sun May 30, 2010 8:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby Bhassler on Sun May 30, 2010 5:11 pm

Nice post, Bodywork.
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
--Moshe Feldenkrais
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby wayne hansen on Sun May 30, 2010 5:45 pm

i am a rugby league fan and the old thing about past verses present always comes up.
the fact is the best of one generation would always be one of the best of any other.
it is in their makeup.
dont forget these were men who did a lot more physical work due to the times,let alone training.
i ask one more time is the difference in size due to the lack of drug testing in the mma.
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby Areios on Mon May 31, 2010 3:42 am

there is a drog test in the major MMA leagues. The normal testing for any other sports with a natural partner who make the tests.
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby Tom on Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:08 pm

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9004&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=45#p154471

kshurika wrote:My teacher has mastered a number of IMA, including several schools of taiji, bagua, xing yi (Shanxi and Hebei) and a bunch of other stuff, including a second degree black belt in BJJ. I agree with him that a fairly well-trained and well-rounded MMA fighter would destroy a high-level IMA guy. Sun Lu Tang, legend that he is, couldn't get in the ring with B.J. Penn. Well, he could I guess, but, they'd have to carry him out on a stretcher. That's just the reality of it.


I'm guessing kshurika was not quoting his yoga teacher there.

However, assuming that is an accurate representation of Tim Cartmell's current thinking . . . so what? Sun Lutang at heart was a mixed martial artist, training xingyi, bagua and taiji, and then mixing certain principles and shenfa into his taijiquan. He probably had some shuai jiao and Shaolinesque striking and kicking training before he started in any of the IMAs. Hell, SLT was the epitome of a true mixed martial artist, looking for effective principles, shenfa and training methods from different MAs that he'd trained in depth.

I think Tim does the same thing. He'll train entries and takedowns from xingyi, taiji and bagua and meld them seamlessly with stand-up grappling and groundwork. He takes xingyi ground techniques and works them with jujutsu moves as part of his "Groundproofing" teaching (surviving going to the ground and getting back on your feet to fight or run).

As to B.J. Penn "versus" Sun LT? I think Sun would have welcomed the play, taken a look at what makes BJ tick, then figured out a way to beat him. 8-)
Ku jin gan lai (苦尽甘来).
After bitter, the sweet comes.
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby kshurika on Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:22 pm

No, I wasn't quoting Tim. As for his current thinking on this subject, I think I know what it is, but I'll let him state it, if he wants. I think he's too busy teaching, though.

BJP vs. SLT? Different times, different training techniques, different physiques. Different outcome. Decision: BJP.
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby Josealb on Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:44 pm

Looking forward to Tims next book on BJ Penn's fighting methods!
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby Areios on Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:50 pm

well if SLT was an mma guy in he's day, now i think he would be one of the so called ufc guys.
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby Tom on Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:01 pm

kshurika wrote:No, I wasn't quoting Tim.


kshurika wrote:My teacher has mastered a number of IMA, including several schools of taiji, bagua, xing yi (Shanxi and Hebei) and a bunch of other stuff, including a second degree black belt in BJJ.


Hmmm . . . I know Tim has a fair amount of skill in several schools of taiji, bagua, xing yi (Shanxi and Hebei) and a bunch of other stuff, including a second degree black belt in BJJ . . . so I assumed you were quoting him. Who is your teacher that has a profile of MA experience so remarkably similar to Tim's?
Ku jin gan lai (苦尽甘来).
After bitter, the sweet comes.
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby kshurika on Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:48 pm

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh................... remarkably, his name's Tim too. ::)


And define "fair amount".
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby Tom on Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:36 pm

kshurika wrote:Since I'm the guy who posted a vid of Ma Hong (remember way back then?), I feel entitled to get into this "MMA vs. internal martial arts" thing that it's degenerated into. My teacher has mastered a number of IMA, including several schools of taiji, bagua, xing yi (Shanxi and Hebei) and a bunch of other stuff, including a second degree black belt in BJJ. I agree with him that a fairly well-trained and well-rounded MMA fighter would destroy a high-level IMA guy. Sun Lu Tang, legend that he is, couldn't get in the ring with B.J. Penn. Well, he could I guess, but, they'd have to carry him out on a stretcher. That's just the reality of it.

Ma Hong's great. In a battle of wits, learning and overall decency there's probably not a UFC guy that could touch him. In a fight? :'(


Just trying to help you avoid being obtuse. Tim Cartmell, your teacher, contends (according to you) that "a fairly well-trained and well-rounded MMA fighter would destroy a high-level IMA guy." The very next sentence in your post above says that "Sun Lu Tang, legend that he is, couldn't get in the ring with B. J. Penn." It's not unreasonable to assume that you were inferring Tim agreed with that, too. Now you've clarified you weren't quoting Tim about the second sentence, "Sun Lu Tang, legend that he is . . ."

Actually I don't care whether you're obtuse here or not. I do care about whether Tim gets misconstrued, here or anywhere. Which is why I labor so mightily to write in circles to come back to the point of origin . . . upon re-reading, you were clear in the first place.

Hope that clarifies things. 8-)
Ku jin gan lai (苦尽甘来).
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Re: Ma Hong

Postby kshurika on Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:49 pm

Oh yeah, that's perfectly clear. At least to me. You see, I was a philosophy major and we thrive on obtuseness.



Hey, how 'bout that Ma Hong, huh?
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