Ma Hong

[D_Glenn]

...[ I agree with him that a fairly well-trained and well-rounded MMA fighter would destroy a high-level IMA guy. Sun Lu Tang, legend that he is, couldn't get in the ring with B.J. Penn. Well, he could I guess, but, they'd have to carry him out on a stretcher. That's just the reality of it.
]...

Geez. That's sort of a spit in the face of some of the more famous practitioners of Sun Lu Tang's IMA, namely Tim Cartmell, who's also done so much work on getting Sun's translations out there.



.

[edededed]

Sun is considered one of the greatest IMA masters that ever lived - so if you think that a "fairly well-trained and well-rounded MMA fighter would destroy" Sun - just do MMA.

[Bhassler]

...[ I agree with him that a fairly well-trained and well-rounded MMA fighter would destroy a high-level IMA guy. Sun Lu Tang, legend that he is, couldn't get in the ring with B.J. Penn. Well, he could I guess, but, they'd have to carry him out on a stretcher. That's just the reality of it.
]...

Geez. That's sort of a spit in the face of some of the more famous practitioners of Sun Lu Tang's IMA, namely Tim Cartmell, who's also done so much work on getting Sun's translations out there.



.

Not really, since Tim Cartmell is himself basically an MMA guy, as evidenced by his (apparent) practice. Regardless of who he trained with and what he's done to support IMA in the past, his true opinions on the quality and utility of what he learned are probably fairly obviously reflected in his current training regimen.

[wayne hansen]

"

how could someone who has never seen sun lu tang,let alone fought him know who he would or wouldent beat.
as for the triangle chock,if he is knocked out before he can deliver it how does that work.

[Dmitri]

how could someone who has never seen sun lu tang,let alone fought him know who he would or wouldent beat.
as for the triangle chock,if he is knocked out before he can deliver it how does that work.

+42

[D_Glenn]

Not really, since Tim Cartmell is himself basically an MMA guy, as evidenced by his (apparent) practice. Regardless of who he trained with and what he's done to support IMA in the past, his true opinions on the quality and utility of what he learned are probably fairly obviously reflected in his current training regimen.

Really?

I just, maybe 2 months ago, read his article... "Throwing Techniques in Internal Martial Arts: Sticking-Following" [nian & sui]
"This article explains the key concepts of “sticking and following” as they apply to the throwing methods of the Chinese Internal martial arts. The concepts are defined, explained and illustrated with practical examples of sample techniques from each of the three orthodox Internal styles: Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Baguazhang. "

...in the last issue of JAMA. I'm pretty sure it mentioned Sun Lu Tang. I guess a lot can change in a couple months.


.

[kreese]

One can have learned and respect Sun Lu Tang's martial arts without thinking that he or his methods are perfect. MMA is about saying, "hey, I shouldn't worship one art/one master, but should respect practicality and put together what works for me since martial art should serve the man, not the other way around..." Right?

[Bhassler]

Edit: I'm stepping out of this conversation. Nothing good ever comes of discussing IMA vs. MMA or Tim Cartmell.

[Dmitri]

One can have learned and respect Sun Lu Tang's martial arts without thinking that he or his methods are perfect. MMA is about saying, "hey, I shouldn't worship one art/one master, but should respect practicality and put together what works for me since martial art should serve the man, not the other way around..." Right?

Right. But it's not about what MMA is or isn't or who's better; for me it's exactly about what wayne said, i.e. how the hell can ANYONE know who would win a fight without having any idea at all about one of the participants?

We're seen what someone like Cung Le can do to "well-rounded MMA fighters", without ever even touching the ground, so, like, what tha...

[kshurika]

Chris Fleming wrote:

Sun Lu Tang, legend that he is, couldn't get in the ring with B.J. Penn."

Why? Because Sun didn't train triangle chokes? So the guy who just beat Penn would also have beaten Sun?

Why, yes, Chris. You're absolutely right. Kudos.

[kshurika]

Oh, by the way, I brought up Sun Lu Tang. No one else did. Who is this "Tim Cartmell" you all speak of?

[kreese]

Dmitri - I meant so what if Tim Cartmell wrote an article about Sun Lu Tang, but thinks his methods may not fare well against differently trained fighters. I don't engage in fantasy matchups. Ugh, this thread is like stepping in dog poo now.

[beenawhile]

Cung Le is a kickboxer/sanshou fighter, as well as a wrestler. He wins most of his fights by tko's due to strikes. I'm sure if he needs to, he can submit since he's done BJJ. He's what I would call an MMA fighter par excellence, with a great standup/takedown game. What does he have to do with this discussion?

Cheers,
P

[D_Glenn]

.

[Chris Fleming]

Chris Fleming wrote:

Sun Lu Tang, legend that he is, couldn't get in the ring with B.J. Penn."

Why? Because Sun didn't train triangle chokes? So the guy who just beat Penn would also have beaten Sun?

Why, yes, Chris. You're absolutely right. Kudos.

Yes, all that rolling around on the floor between some other guy's legs, or that awesome "north south position" aka the reverse 69 always trumps any and all IMA principles, no matter who does them. Hey, while were at comparing skills with strawman arguments, isn't MMA better than people with guns or knives too?