Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

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Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby middleway on Sat Jul 05, 2008 4:52 am

hi guys,

I was wondering if anyone can point me to a vid of the famous Chen style punch ... you know the shaky fajiny one .... being used on a target ... either person or pad.

It is thought of very highly by chen people i know but i have never seen it used

anyways ... if anyone can point me to a vid it would be most appreciated.

Cheers peeps

chris
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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby Little Bai on Sat Jul 05, 2008 6:27 am

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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby middleway on Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:18 am

cool .. thanks.

I was looking for something more specific to power testing that strike. But at the end of that clip Mo shows some usage for it which is cool.

Thanks
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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby Andy_S on Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:58 pm

Chris:

Good question. A broader question might be:
Why don't Chen Taiji people do striking pad training, or striking people training?

Perhaps it is because Chen Taiji emphasizes striking over pushing (unlike some other Taiji styles/masters)?

Quick story. When I was in the village recently, I asked Chen Zi-qiang (the 30-year old chief instructor of Dad Chen Xiaoxing's Taiji school) to hit me with his shoulder strike (he had just moved me with it during tuisau); I wanted to taste his power. He applies it with a jerk in, then the shoulder strike. I did not look at his legs, but I am pretty sure he stepped.

He complied (he is a couple of inches shorter than me, and maybe 5 kilos lighter).
First result: I was sent reeling back several meters.
Second result (a bit harder): My head was whipped a bit, and I was sent reeling and fell on my arse.
That was hard enough to convince me he has short range full body power.

Chen ZQ is a fighting man and loves doing this stuff. Unfortunately, there are not many in the art like him.

Also, In the village school, they have a frame of hanging bags of different heights which are filled with sand (I suspedt it was originally wet sand), and consequently as hard as concrete, so the only person who used them that I saw was yours truly (lightly). There is also a sawdust filled bag in the weights gym, but it is hung too high for my liking, and I did not see anyone use it.
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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby middleway on Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:20 am

Thanks Andy,

This was something i was interested in. The broader question of pad / person practice was where i was going.

I have a couple of guys in my class who study Chen style (both for over 20 years) with a Lineage guy here in the UK and one of them has never felt any striking off his teachers... These are well known teachers. The other has felt 'some''. It was intreguing to me why this seems to be fairly absent from an art where fa jing is so emphasised.

Thanks fopr your experience.

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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby Graculus on Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:36 am

The fact that striking is not often shown, and that tons and tons of chin-na and similar applications are shown probably points to the fact that, despite emphasizing 'fa-jin', many practitioners cannot really use it to strike with. If you're not training it, you're not training it. I feel that many of the 'shakier' styles are emphasizing body movement at the expense of utility in striking, (loose joints on impact can spell trouble or at least leakage of force). The older generations of practitioners in Taiwan have been criticized for old man's tai ji, but I think that it may also be that they were training with something else in mind, and that their benchmarks included reference to striking.
This is not so apparent in the younger generation.

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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby Andy_S on Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:36 am

Well, fajing can be used in locking too. Chen XX did an odd thing to me. He was demoing an app of "Flash the back" when you use you knee as an obstacle while heaving him in the other direction, and he gave me inner knee a very slight nudge with his...not sure what he did, but it was a potential breaker. The odd thing was I later worked a very similar technique in tuisau with my mate and with Chen Zijun, and there was nothing like it. it was odd - it is even hard to describe, but I got the sense that it could have been disabling if he had wanted to make it so.

BTW Chris, who is the lineage guy they have been studying under for 20 yearsin the UK? When I was in UK doing Chen in 95-97, only people I came across doing it in depth were Michael Tse and Karel Koskuba. PM me if you prefer.

But yes, striking and combative training is not emphasized in Chen Taiji. That is why I was so impressed with Chen ZQ. He is all about combat - though he takes it from a wrestling, rather than a striking base.
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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby Bhassler on Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:31 am

CZK was quite big on hitting the sandbags, and encouraged his students to do it as well. My teacher is an impressive striker-- having felt a bit of his power I know for certain that if he ever really let go and popped me one it would be game over for me that day, if not for quite a bit longer as well. When asked why strikes are not typically included in push hands, his response is generally that you can do it if you want to, but it usually means that someone gets caught and it makes for very short practice sessions.

Regarding loose joints, the idea is to tighten up just at the point of impact. If my teacher isn't hitting something, he doesn't tighten up-- that means if he's just imagining hitting something he stays loose the whole time. Also, the strikes are not necessarily where people look for them. There are a lot of strikes with elbows, the back of the wrist, etc, in Chen style. An example would be the famous punch (hidden hammer) being discussed here. The striking applications emphasized to me were (in order of importance) as strike with the back elbow, a strike with the front elbow, and lastly the strike with the front fist. Chen style being an up close and personal sort of affair combatively, elbows are quicker, more likely to land, and better suited to the range than full-on hand strikes.
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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby RobP on Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:17 am

Well FWIW a Chen guy once refused to strike me as "my teacher said if I hit someone I might kill them".... To his credit he let me hit him though....

cheers

Rob
Last edited by RobP on Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby cloudz on Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:21 am

lol..

fajin though guys.. I mean seriously. Isn't it the Chinese way of saying "let him 'ave it!" :)
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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby middleway on Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:31 am

Well FWIW a Chen guy once refused to strike me as "my teacher said if I hit someone I might kill them".... To his credit he let me hit him though....


ahhhhhh ... that old chessnut ..... :D

Thanks for the replies guys

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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby Andy_S on Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:15 pm

SNIP
The striking applications emphasized to me were (in order of importance) as strike with the back elbow, a strike with the front elbow, and lastly the strike with the front fist. Chen style being an up close and personal sort of affair combatively, elbows are quicker, more likely to land, and better suited to the range than full-on hand strikes.
SNIP

Interesting - when you say strike with the front of the elbow, do you mean the inside of the elbow?

So Rob....what happenned when you hit your man?
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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby Bhassler on Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:06 pm

I said front elbow, not front of the elbow. Sticking to the last "punch" in the movement, the right hand goes forward as the left hand goes back. The left elbow would be the back elbow, the right elbow would be the front elbow, which would strike as the arm comes forward before it really unfolds. So relative to the front elbow, you would be striking most probably with the outside edge of the forearm.
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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby RobP on Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:11 am

Andy_S wrote:SNIP
So Rob....what happenned when you hit your man?


He seemed quite surprised by the effect of a "light tap".... took him a little while to recover, but then he wouldn't try the shallow breathing that I suggested

Honestly, if you never hit anything other than thin air, or even a pad come to that, how can you gauge the effects of your strikes? It's also two fold in that your partner learns to deal physically and psychologically with being hit

cheers

Rob
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Re: Chen Taiji Quan Video request.

Postby Ian on Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:17 am

That's why I stopped doing Chen style - killed too many people.
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