James McNeil Xingyi Apps

[kreese]

I'll pop the journal into the laptop one of these days to confirm. It's not a high priority, actually, and I have no real connection to TST per se. I just see a lot of BS in this thread and I think the best thing is to just present info. So far we know that TST has proven itself to be one of the most proven and successful systems of xingyi out there. And yes, it is xingyi. It's so interesting to see what flies in the face of this reality.

[JessOBrien]

I spent some time over the last few weeks with a guy who was a student of Mike Bingo for quite a while. He said that Hsu Hong Ji trained Bingo over a period of years, correcting and instructing him every time he returned from the jungle in Vietnam. He did indeed learn the entire system quite thoroughly. He said that according to Bingo, Hsu's training was invaluable in not only helping him survive but in doing damage to the enemy.

Although perhaps wartime may not be the most leisurely time to train martial arts, many of the Chinese martial arts were developed for warfare. The founders of many of these arts had been soldiers and had extensive direct experience of battlefield combat. There are aspects of these arts that can only be experienced through actual life and death situations.

In my opinion one must undergo such experiences to reach the height of martial arts skill. I personally will settle for mediocre in my own training, because I don't have the courage/insanity to seek out such situations. But for those who seek to "take it to the top", there is no substitute. Someone like Mike Bingo would be very helpful in learning about this aspect of martial arts.

-Jess O

[kreese]

I would learn from a combat vet over some nerd with a 'complete system' any day.

Thanks for the information, Jess.

In the interest of history, can somebody tell us about the various branches of Xingyiquan coming from Hong Yi Xiang and especially Xu Hong Ji? Which of these teachers has fought full-contact? Who has trained full-contact fighters?

I can think of:

via Xu Hong Ji: Mike Patterson*, Vince Black*, Dale Shigenaga (sp?), James McNeil*, Tim Cartmell*, Charles Alsip (?) in Indiana, USA, John Price*, Mike Bingo**

via Hong Yi Xiang: Su Dong Chen*, Luo De Xiu*, Xi Hong Ji*

* has fought in tournaments himself or has trained full-contact fighters with success

** used his xingyiquan in military combat situations

- Edited to add Xu Hong Ji and Charles Alsip (?) thanks to NianFong and a sticky note I had on my desktop

- Vince Black and John Price fought/trained fighters

+ Mike Bingo

[Doc Stier]

Although perhaps wartime may not be the most leisurely time to train martial arts, many of the Chinese martial arts were developed for warfare. The founders of many of these arts had been soldiers and had extensive direct experience of battlefield combat.

There are aspects of these arts that can only be experienced through actual life and death situations. In my opinion one must undergo such experiences to reach the height of martial arts skill....for those who seek to "take it to the top", there is no substitute.

I totally agree. When I was inducted into military service as a USMC Force Recon Team operative in 1969, I already had over eight years of varied martial arts experience which had included Korean, Okinawan, and Chinese styles. I had done a lot of hardcore, 'old school' Asian style sparring without protective equipment, since there was none available in those days, both in the schools where I had studied and in tournament competitions, and had used what I had learned in a number of unavoidable street fighting encounters. As a result, I believed that these varied experiences had provided me with a sort of 'on the job training', or OJT, which had prepared me to realistically deal with any kind of 'live' fighting situation that I would ever encounter.

However, I can say without any reservation, that the 'live' hand-to-hand combat encountered during 27 months in the jungle of Southeast Asia, where defeat meant life altering wounds or injuries, immediate dismemberment, or death on the spot, was a totally different experience. Unfortunately, IMO, there's simply no way that anyone can fully prepare for such horrendous events in advance of actually being there. You either already have skills that work in the worst possible scenarios, or you don't.

There's usually only one momentary chance to react and respond effectively, with no opportunity for a second shot at survival, no opportunity to review the post-fight videos for a better showing next time, no opportunity to polish your form, and no opportunity to test your technique applications in preparation for the lethally dangerous events that regularly occur everyday without forewarning.



Thankfully, nonetheless, my martial arts training saved my life again and again, for which I am most grateful!

Doc

[JessOBrien]

Dang! Doc, that's some real stuff right there. From what I hear, there is something about real combat that is deeply scary and intense beyond even the most heavy duty sport fight. I have never been in either, but from those that have, it's a testing ground unlike any other. I'm glad you survived the experience and that your students can learn from what you've been through without having to undergo it themselves.

-Jess O

[Doc Stier]

Thanks, Jess!

Fortunately, life in the combat zone is an experience that most guys won't ever be subjected to, unless another World War occurs, and is also an experience that not many guys want to repeat. The exceptions, of course, are those who enjoy the constant adrenalin high so much that they become soldiers of fortune or mercenaries after their period of legitimate military enlistment is over, so they can keep fighting...somewhere...with someone...and I guess they don't care where or with whom. Go figure.

Insofar as actually surviving is concerned, it isn't usually due to being smarter and more aggressive, or due to having better ordinance and equipment than the enemy. Some will also say that survival in such circumstances is possible solely through faith in the Grace of God. Certainly, uncompromising mental discipline and a positive emotional expectation regarding the final outcome is very important to all real warriors everywhere. That having been said, I believe that the benefits of previous meditation practices and mental self-control training were of equal value to any of the athletic fitness training, martial arts applications training, or military combat training.

Enhanced alertness and awareness in unfamiliar surroundings, maintaining a vigilant focus of attention in a hostile environment, projecting a strong energetic presence in the moment at hand, and learning to trust intuitive 'sixth sense' feelings regarding factors that can't be perceived through the physical senses, proved to be perhaps even more crucial to survival in life and death circumstances.

Doc

[Buddy]

Welcome back, Doc.

[kreese]

I've been jacked, like mugged, and what kept me from beating the living shit out of that guy was my mindset, not my technical skills. Mindset. It isn't the same as combat experience, by far, but there is a seriousness and gravity to real-life violence that cuts away all the BS instantly. You see it in the eyes of real MA practitioners. Meynard had it when I visited Shen Wu last year. But he is a nice guy and a patient and giving teacher as well.

Thanks so much for your posts, people. Very enlightening stuff.

[chud]

I spent some time over the last few weeks with a guy who was a student of Mike Bingo for quite a while. He said that Hsu Hong Ji trained Bingo over a period of years, correcting and instructing him every time he returned from the jungle in Vietnam.

I heard something similar about Harold Bellamy: after coming home from his initial training with Hsu Hong Ji, he returned periodically and got corrections and further teachings.

[Old Man Chi]

In 30 years in MA I've meet a handful of people who I could feel and see had it. I've had the honor of rolling with Royce, Relson, Royler and getting hit by Nakamura, among others. One of those handful of guys was a student of McNeils. The diefication of old men in grainy black and white pictures is just simply silly. There just guys. Great martial artist, but just guys. Thank the founder of your liniage for not being afraid to follow what he could feel in his bones was real. I'm staying in my basement.