The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby yeniseri on Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:28 am

I will say that my practical experience of jujitsu is limited but isn't it an omission to not mention that Okinawan Kempo as part of a larger traditon and influence.
I realize that the greater Japanese mainland has the monopoly on modernization meaning the small island Okinawan viewpoint tends to be discounted but it is a great synthesis to see how the mold was made better through the Okinawan world view of its history.

Yes, there is a 'fuzzy' historical accounting if we look at Aikido (Daito-Ryu) and Hapkido, where we see similar personalities but the more visible tend to be made more important through historical interpretation or lack thereof. My reference is that the founder of Hapkido was a house boy (sound familar) who was allegedly kidnapped??? and brought to Japan, was in the house of Takeda until somehow the founder picked up some elements and made it as we know today!
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby GrahamB on Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:19 am

Hmmm.. I've read that twice now and I can't really understand what you're asking/saying?
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby GrahamB on Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:03 am

Surprising things I've learned from doing this podcast:

Western Boxing is older than Karate in Japan, and older than Jiujitsu in Brazil. The first Western boxing gym was established in Japan in 1896.

Kano Jigoro, the founder of Judo, went from never having trained martial arts at all, to founding his own style in less than 6 years.

Jiujitsu has been in Brazil longer than Karate has been in Japan.
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:37 pm

Yes of course Karate in “mainland” Japan is not that very old since Okinawa use to be its own kingdom, and there Karate can be traced back further in time. But then also of course, one can say Karate is not that very old in Okinawa either since the naming the Okinawan martial art “Karate” came around about the same time it spread to the mainland Japan………the use of Karate-Gi(uniform) is also a quite “recent” thing.
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby GrahamB on Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:55 am

Yes, the original meaning of Kara-te was "China Hand" which is essentially the same as Kempo - which is in Chinese is Chuan Fa, the of-the-time (1600s) Chinese word for martial arts, Japanified. So they essentially had the same name.

Once Karate got to Japan they changed the name to "empty hand", because there was a strong nationalistic Japanese movement going on at the time and they wanted to downplay any Chinese connection. The art itself was also radically altered - belts introduced, kimonos, doing things in lines, simplified, etc...

We talk about that in episode 4 - there's a lot of stuff on Mas Oyama in there. He was interesting because as well as being an extreme marketer, he'd also noticed that Karate had changed from what it was supposed to be and he was a bit of a reformer of the art. Of course, he wasn't the only one reforming Karate. Lots of other people reformed it in different directions and created new styles.
Last edited by GrahamB on Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby Trick on Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:05 am

The “simplification” of Karate and teaching lined up larger groups seem to have come around from the Okinawan Karate master Ankō Itosu’s idea to introduce karate into the school system as a physical education program which was then followed through by his student Gichin Funakoshi. Also it was noted that often young Okinawans that where recruited to the Japanese army had an exceptional physique due to karate practice, but the practice was to time consuming and had to be “simplified” if to be taught in the army.…I’m not sure about the time lines, but the simplification and teaching karate to a broader public came around about or just prior to the same thing happened in China with the big schools of martial arts established in Nanjing, Shanghai and so on ? …………About Masutatsu Oyama being an “reformer” of Karate I have some doubts. As a Korean and somewhat affiliated with the Yakuza(which traditionally has a large numbers of (Japanese)/Korean members) he probably because of that could not continue his studies in the Shotokan school and just picked up a little from the Goju Ryu school from this he brewed up his own style, and later got some ideas from his former judo coach Kenichi Sawai(but not ideas of grappling/wrestling) his style Kyokushin seemingly became a mix of little of this and that. Some Kata here, Kumite there and some breaking boards in between.
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby TrainingDummy on Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:31 am

I'm liking the podcast but is it possible to nomalise the volume in editing?

I'm using ear buds and it's a bit piercing when someone gets excited and raises their voice.
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby GrahamB on Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:55 am

Hi,

Thanks!

Yes, we are making efforts to sort out the post-production. Episode 5 just dropped, and D should have improved his editing on this episode (some problem with compression apparently).... although I'm not sure - let me know what you think... we're not professionals with Audio. He's talking about learning Logic X, so that should improve things too...

https://www.spreaker.com/user/9404101/5 ... -kempo-par

In this episode we try not to talk about Aikido for quite a long time, and fail, then decide we'll actually talk about it next time instead ;D
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby Steve James on Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:03 pm

Listening to the podcast, I had to look this bout up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykZe3DI_81o
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby GrahamB on Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:08 pm

Heh - you want part 2 for where it goes off script ;D
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby Steve James on Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:14 pm

Naw, I watched it. The first part is important for context. Rikidozan was a tough mf. It wouldn't matter what style he did or if it was wwe or mma. I loved when it went from wwe to "oh, I can kick too and more."
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby windwalker on Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:04 pm

Steve James wrote:Naw, I watched it. The first part is important for context. Rikidozan was a tough mf. It wouldn't matter what style he did or if it was wwe or mma. I loved when it went from wwe to "oh, I can kick too and more."



from a posted post on the OP clip

The legendary back story is Rikidozan a sumo champion but born Korean, is the rising star for beating all the evil American savages. Kimura the famous Judoka master that defeated Helio Gracie in Brazil using the double wristlock, the recognized and popluar "bad ass" of Asia "working" a match supposedly against

Rikidozan in super rare native star vs native star match. LOOK FOR THE "INTENTIONAL" LOW BLOW by Kimura, then Rikidozan blitz attacks the judoka legend and knocks him out. Instantly Rikidozan becomes the first Ace of Japan.

This also pissed off the Yakuza, and soon after this Rikidozan was murdered in a yakuza nightclub. This 1 match is a harbinger of Japanese challenging other disciplined fighters.


Rikidozan vs Masahiko Kimura (1954 - Part 2/2)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtwqmU2eV6M
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby GrahamB on Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:23 am

"soon after"

The match was in 1954. HIs death was in 1963. D's theory in the podcast is that it was unrelated to the Kimura match just a case of wrong person, wrong place. The yakuza organisation the guy belonged to didn't even exist in 1954.
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby Steve James on Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:21 am

Apparently, the guy who killed Rikidozan apologizes to his sons and visits his grave in penitence every year. If so, I don't think he did it that much later and then regretted it. I've got no clue, though.

I thought the context of discussing the capabilities of pro-wrestlers (especially back in the 50s and 60s) was interesting. The matches were normally about drawing an audience and making a profit, but things could change. In the Rikidozan/Kimura match, it looked as if Kimura was being embarrassed. Rikidozan outweighed him and was used to the format. There hadn't been kicking before, and I think Kimura did it out of frustration, but not maliciously. I think that if he'd just bowed or done something to show his regret, Rikidozan might have reacted differently... definitely maybe. However, it looked like the classic "Oh, so it's like that, izit" pub scrap. Except, Kimura probably did regret it and didn't go into full fight mode --which may or may not have helped.
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Re: The History of Jiujitsu and Kempo podcast

Postby GrahamB on Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:03 am

I think the idea was it was supposed to be a draw - so both lineages got respect however after Kimura (accidentally or not) kicked Dozan in the balls it went off script. By the time kimura realises I think it was too late.

The guy who killed him was a kempo guy apparently.
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