TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:55 am

Steve James wrote:Naw, they just know that what Trump does is not representative of the US.


He does not represent the people who elected him to hold the office?

By holding the office he does represent all the peoples of the US regardless of whether they voted for him or not.

The official explained that Trump’s decision to move the special operators out of the zone of a potential Turkish operation was done to protect troops and keep them out of the crossfire.

Those troops are moving to more secure areas over the next several days, the official said.

https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoin ... esurgence/

Keeping the US from getting more involved, is in the best interest of the US in the long run.
What is happening now was always an option, understanding possible scenarios that may arise from it
have been mapped out, weighted against other alternatives.


Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s threats were a warning that a U.S.-Turkish deal to secure Syria’s troubled border with Turkey was faltering. He said a Turkish military operation against the U.S-backed Kurdish forces could begin “maybe today, maybe tomorrow.”


The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces said it is committed to the agreement between Turkey and the U.S. to preserve stability in the region.

“However, we will not hesitate to turn any unprovoked attack by Turkey into an all-out war on the entire border to DEFEND ourselves and our people,” SDF spokesman Mustafa Bali tweeted Saturday.

Turkey views the People’s Protection Units, or YPG, as an extension of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, which has waged an insurgency against Turkey for 35 years.
https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2019/10/06/turkey-threatens-military-operation-into-syria-against-american-backed-kurdish-forces/

Short of direct military action against a NATO member
with

Incirlik Air Base has a U.S. Air Force complement of about five thousand airmen, with several hundred airmen from the Royal Air Force and Turkish Air Force also present, as of late 2002. The primary unit stationed at Incirlik Air Base is the 39th Air Base Wing (39 ABW) of the U.S. Air Force. Incirlik Air Base has one 3,048 m (10,000 ft)-long runway,[6][7] located among about 57 hardened aircraft shelters. Tactical nuclear weapons are stored at the base.[8]


The US has no really good options in line with its long term interest.
At some point the US may have to decide how important strategically is it to keep maintaining
the air base and keep tactical nukes there.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:06 am

The mission of the 39th Air Base Wing is to support and protect U.S. and NATO assets and people throughout Turkey while providing a full spectrum of capabilities to the warfighter.

The wing also supports two geographically separated units. Winning teamwork, strategic location and robust infrastructure combine to ensure the success of Team Incirlik. Close to many of the world's potential trouble spots, Incirlik is an important base in NATO's Southern Region.

The 39th ABW helps protect U.S. and NATO interests in the Southern Region by providing a responsive staging and operational air base ready to project integrated, forward-based air power.

Image
https://www.incirlik.af.mil/Units/39th-Air-Base-Wing/

Some here seem to be suggesting military action against a NATO member
might be prudent to understand what is there and why....
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:09 am

Ok, if he represents the US, everything thing the US does is his responsibility, and the results are his responsibility.

Afa strategy, the link you posted doesn't support any strategic idea. The times article you posted reported that Pentagon officials say that Trump only removed 50 - 100 "special operators." At any rate, the idea was that the withdrawal was "tactical," in order to keep troops out of a crossfire.

Strategically, Russia has gained influence and we, not Trump, have lost influence. Trump has created alliances that wouldn't have existed without his tactical decision. Sure, talking about a middle east mess that should be left for others to solve is fine.

Also, removing nuclear weapons from Turkey isn't necessarily a bad idea. The reason for having them there was part of the nuclear deterrent against Russia. I don't blame the Russians for wanting them gone. Of course, Trump --representing the US-- ditched the proliferation treaty and strategic arms limitations, didn't he?
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:28 am

Ok, if he represents the US, everything thing the US does is his responsibility, and the results are his responsibility.


As it is with all Presidents, past, present, and future.
They will be judged by history

Things change as needed for the time.....

Image
Image

systems that were deactivated as part of agreements or treaties.

used to cover/support the LANCE system live fires off of s-korea into the yellow sea...
very quick,,,,off the launch rail....

ATACMS replaced it




FWIW was never in support of having US bases all over the world...
with out first securing our own borders
never really understood it....
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:40 am

I don't blame the Russians for wanting them gone. Of course, Trump --representing the US-- ditched the proliferation treaty and strategic arms limitations, didn't he?


Do you understand why?

The so-called New START treaty commits Washington and Moscow to limiting proliferation of strategic offensive arms. ... In February, the United States suspended its obligations under the INF Treaty after Russia continued to deny that it possessed a prohibited cruise missile. NATO allies supported the U.S. allegation.



Earlier this year, President Donald J. Trump said the United States would terminate the treaty because of Russian noncompliance. U.S. officials claimed that Russia breached the treaty by deploying systems for an intermediate-range missiles known as the SSC-8.

President Barack Obama’s administration first voiced concerns about Russian violations in 2013, and a year later, Obama sent Russian President Vladimir Putin a letter urging discussions.


Seems like what the current president did was in line with the last one felt....but did not act on it..
Maybe it was not time for him to do so...
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:55 am

Some here seem to be suggesting military action against a NATO member might be prudent to understand what is there and why....


Oh, who? The president said that Europe should do it. They're NATO members, but moving on.

Didn't you read Michael's post of logical fallacies? War is not the only option. I already posted that the US is "urging" a cease fire. Hopefully, that will lead to negotiations that prevent more war.

Anyway, Trump supporters are generally against being in NATO anymore. Yeah, I do know why NATO exists and why there are nukes in Turkey. Now, whether removing them is a sound strategic move depends on whether there is really a strategy. I'm absolutely certain you can't tell me what it is. Only Trump can say what's on his mind.

But, ok, you say it's a good move. Let's see how it shakes out. I'll just stick to posting about the bad results. You can stick to the good ones. If there aren't any good results, you can post them.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:03 am

The stressed relationship now threatens a breakout or release of ISIS prisoners, which could flood the battlefield with new fighters and offset gains made by the coalition and SDF forces who have grounded the terror group into small rural and desert pockets across the Euphrates.

SDF forces are currently holding roughly 11,000 ISIS detainees across more than 30 detention facilities, according to Marine Capt. Marisa Roberts, a spokeswoman for the the U.S.-led mission to defeat ISIS in Iraq and Syria known as Operation Inherent Resolve.

Among those detainees are also nearly 2,000 foreign fighters, “who would otherwise try to return to their home countries and plot attacks on innocent civilians,” Roberts said.

A camp for internally displaced persons known as al-Hol, located in Hasakah province, Syria, is well over capacity, holding nearly 70,000 people including thousands of ISIS families, according to a DoD report.

A DoD inpector general’s report said the SDF were only capable of providing “minimal security” for the sprawling camp, which has allowed “uncontested conditions to spread of ISIS ideology."

The report also said that due to the drawdown of U.S. forces in Syria, Operation Inherent Resolve was having trouble tracking the situation in the camp.

U.S. Central Command noted in the inspector general report that ISIS was likely “exploiting the lack of security” at the camp to recruit and reestablish communications with fighters who left the battlefield.

A congressionally mandated report on the Syrian civil war also sounded the alarm regarding the threat poised by the overburdened ISIS prison camps.

“Security conditions are tenuous inside both IDP [internally displaced persons] camps and pop-up prisons,” the final report for the Syria Study Group reads.

The report warned that ISIS fighters could mimic its tactic of prison breaks to refuel its rise across Syria as it did in Iraq in 2012 and 2013.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:15 am

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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:34 pm

But at least eight U.S. service members who served with Kurdish forces in Syria and Iraq expressed disgust in interviews with The Washington Post about the rapid U.S. changes and the lack of a clear plan to prevent a crisis. Many of them, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, doubted that Turkish forces would have launched an assault into northern Syria if the White House had not said it would stand aside.

“I can’t even look at the atrocities,” an Army officer who served in Syria last year said of videos posted online of Turkish-backed fighters executing Kurdish civilians. “The ISIS mission is going to stop, ISIS is going to have a resurgence, and we’re going to have to go back in five years and do it all again.”

He added that while he was in the Middle East, military officials at the Pentagon sometimes discussed with officers in the field how they could craft a compelling case for Trump to stay longer while a thoughtful exit strategy could be designed.

“I remember hearing, ‘How are we going to phrase terms to convince Trump not to go off a cliff?’ ” the officer said. “It’s like, ‘How do you steer him to the right decision and not where he wants to go?’ ”

Another Army officer who deployed to Syria a few times and has knowledge of ongoing operations predicted in an interview Saturday that if the United States didn't change its policy within 48 hours, “everything over the last five years is done.” Within hours, Trump had ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal from northeastern Syria.

The officer said the United States aided the Turkish offensive by talking the SDF into taking down some of its defenses in the border region under the premise that the United States would stay involved and then allowing the Turkish operation to go forward.

“Folks are heartbroken,” the second officer said. “It’s very different than if we had said, ‘We are getting out of Syria in six months.’ Reasonable-man definition says that we facilitated that attack.”
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:03 pm

Many of them, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, doubted that Turkish forces would have launched an assault into northern Syria if the White House had not said it would stand aside.


You do understand that its illegal for them to speak with out being authorized to do so , more so if its an officer.

"Commenting, posting or linking to material that violates the UCMJ or basic rules of Soldier conduct is prohibited," said Staff Sgt. Dale Sweetnam of the Online and Social Media Division, Office of the Chief of Public Affairs. "Talking negatively about supervisors or releasing sensitive information is punishable under the UCMJ.

https://www.army.mil/article/73367/soci ... under_ucmj

“Folks are heartbroken,” the second officer said. “It’s very different than if we had said, ‘We are getting out of Syria in six months.’ Reasonable-man definition says that we facilitated that attack.”




really disliked officers,,,ones like this one....
One can only hope that who ever is in charge of this officer
has a little talk with him :-\

yep

Code of Military Justice Article 88 - Contempt Toward Public Officials states: “Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”


kind of a problem....
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:34 pm

Interesting

One recent high profile case involved Marine Corps Sergeant Gary Stein, who was court martialed under Article 134 of the UCMJ (see below). SGT Stein created a Facebook page called the “Armed Forces Tea Party”. On his page, SGT Stein called President Obama a “coward” and a “religious and economic enemy of the American people”.

On another Facebook page, SGT Stein vowed that he would not salute Obama, and he was also selling “Nobama” 2012 bumper stickers. As a result of his conduct, an Administrative Separation Board at Camp Pendleton voted 3-0 to recommend that Stein should be dismissed and given an other-than-honorable discharge for making comments “prejudicial to good order and discipline.” Various appeals of the decision were unsuccessful.



https://suffolklaw.com/contempt-toward- ... g-twitter/

While expressions of opinion made in a purely private conversation, or adverse criticism of one of the officials or legislatures named in the article in the course of a political discussion that are not personally contemptuous, are typically not charged as a n offence, giving broad circulation to a written publication containing contemptuous words of the kind made punishable by this article, or the utterance of contemptuous words of this kind in the presence of military subordinates, will result in an offense with aggravating circumstances, and the truth or falsity of any contemptuous statement is always immaterial.

As noted above, dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for up to one (1) year are the possible penalties
for a violation of Article 88.



In my time in the military a lot of this was made very clear,
once as an E-6 telling an E-7 where to go, he was given one of my troops a hard time...

Top,the first sergeant E-8 of the unit made it very clear about rank...and who was wrong,,,it wasn't the E-7 :-\
Also had a run in with a our CO / CPT of our unit at one time, as an E-7 plt sergeant ....
nothing like getting cussed out while at the position of parade rest.

In today's military its hard to say,,,how they handle things.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:50 am

The difference is that they were in country fighting with Kurds. I would say that men become brothers after that, except the Kurdish women are also in combat.

Whatever repercussions they get, their feelings are clear. And there are a lot more who feel the same way. For one thing, they say that it undoes the progress made in the last five years.
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:38 am

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan vowed Wednesday that nothing would prevent him from finishing his mission to rid northern Syria of Kurdish forces, warning the U.S. and Europe that “no power can stop us.”

“We informed the U.S., EU and Russia before the operation began that we want this terrorist organization to be removed from our borders,” Erdogan told lawmakers in Ankara, referring to the YPG. “When the zone from Manbij to Iraq that is 35km [is cleared] when we could establish a safe zone, this operation will be over. But until that point, no power can stop us.”

On Monday, Trump slapped sanctions on Turkey, promising that he is “prepared to swiftly destroy Turkey's economy if Turkish leaders continue down this dangerous and destructive path.”

But Erdogan appears unfazed, telling reporters Tuesday that Ankara is “not concerned by the sanctions,” and reiterating his position that the military offensive will only end when all Kurdish forces are removed


https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvgx ... hvydqVj1Kw
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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:56 pm

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Re: TrumpThrows Kurds Under the Bus After They Take on IS

Postby Steve James on Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:58 pm

Anybody ever study handwriting analysis?
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