Statues and symbols

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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:17 am

Even Roosevelt's family agrees with removing the statue. I showed the Dominican statue for comparison, and there are lots of ways. Both sets of statues send a message.

For example, yep, both have three people of three "races." In the DR, they symbolize the three races that make up the "people." All the DR statues are roughly the same size but, more importantly, each of them has a name and a story important to the origin of the country.

The "White" man in the middle is Bartolomeo de las Casas --who was called the "savior of the Indians" because he was central in stopping the enslavement of the local Taino people by the Spaniards. Ok, otoh, he did it by suggesting that Africans be brought in to do work that was killing off the Indians. However, on his right is Sebastien Lemba who was the leader of a slave revolt, so he is portrayed with his hand upraised breaking his shackles. On las Casas's left is Enriquillo, a Taino cacique ("chief") who led revolts against the Spanish.

Afa the Roosevelt statue, the Indian and the African are anonymous. Yeah, the statue could be read as the "White" man leading from horseback. That's one story that might be subconsciously recognized by some people. Shucks, it would represent how they think anyway. So, to them, the statue is as appropriate now as it was when it was erected. Otoh, to an Indian person, for eg., the reading and the reaction might be different.

There's an easy solution. Put up a different statue. It's a Natural History museum. Use a dinosaur. There are hundreds of options, and a statue of T. Roosevelt can still be somewhere.
Last edited by Steve James on Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby roger hao on Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:19 am

Steve -
I have always admired your history insights.
Please tell me what the Teddy Roosevelt statue is saying because -
I don't get it.
What did he do for either of the groups symbolized and why in front of
Natural History Museum?
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:42 am

Well, afa why that statue was placed there. Since I grew up in NYC, the story is because the Roosevelt family was a major benefactor for the museum, Teddy was famous as Governor and President, and a strong proponent of conservation. There was never an argument that "he" shouldn't have a statue --no matter what his personal views were.

Afa what he did for Native Americans, that's hard to say. US policy toward them wasn't something to be celebrated during his lifetime, especially not for the Plains people (i.e., the ones who used headdresses). Afa the Africans, well, I can't say much there.

Afa what the statue "says," the Museum recognizes that it displays a "racial" hierarchy. But, people may say they don't see it. Okay, how about this? What if we replaced the idealized (tobacco storefront) Indian with an Italian street vendor who would have actually the type of person Roosevelt was leading in NYS at the time? And, on the other side, a normally dressed African American person instead of the idealized African? Why, in fact, have three "races" represented at all? And, there could easily be three statues. Btw, the Indian should be on the horse :).
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:09 pm

Steve James wrote:Even Roosevelt's family agrees with removing the statue. I showed the Dominican statue for comparison, and there are lots of ways. Both sets of statues send a message.

For example, yep, both have three people of three "races." In the DR, they symbolize the three races that make up the "people." All the DR statues are roughly the same size but, more importantly, each of them has a name and a story important to the origin of the country.

The "White" man in the middle is Bartolomeo de las Casas --who was called the "savior of the Indians" because he was central in stopping the enslavement of the local Taino people by the Spaniards. Ok, otoh, he did it by suggesting that Africans be brought in to do work that was killing off the Indians. However, on his right is Sebastien Lemba who was the leader of a slave revolt, so he is portrayed with his hand upraised breaking his shackles. On las Casas's left is Enriquillo, a Taino cacique ("chief") who led revolts against the Spanish.

Afa the Roosevelt statue, the Indian and the African are anonymous. Yeah, the statue could be read as the "White" man leading from horseback. That's one story that might be subconsciously recognized by some people. Shucks, it would represent how they think anyway. So, to them, the statue is as appropriate now as it was when it was erected. Otoh, to an Indian person, for eg., the reading and the reaction might be different.

There's an easy solution. Put up a different statue. It's a Natural History museum. Use a dinosaur. There are hundreds of options, and a statue of T. Roosevelt can still be somewhere.
Thanks for this explanation. About Theodor Roosevelt i only knew he was an US President, but of course there must be more to him.
I looked up, and found that he was an war hero from the Spanish-American war, he was the organizer of the “Rough Riders” cavalry unit and this was what made his initial public fame. So perhaps he sitting on horse refer to his “heroic” Rough Rider time ?.....Of course there’s more to the statue as he is elevated higher than the two beside him.......
His mother came from an wealthy plantation owning family....
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:18 pm

Steve James wrote:Btw, the Indian should be on the horse :).
I’m not sure about this...but wasn’t it Europeans that brought horses to the Americas? Yes it sound strange.....and I could be misremember about what I read a long time about that
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:52 pm

Trick wrote:
Steve James wrote:Btw, the Indian should be on the horse :).
I’m not sure about this...but wasn’t it Europeans that brought horses to the Americas? Yes it sound strange.....and I could be misremember about what I read a long time about that

http://www.texasindians.com/horse.htm#: ... ent%20wild.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:56 am

Spaniards brought the horse. The Plains Indians, the Comanches in particular, became the masters of horsemanship.
Btw, the Comanches were defeated when the Army focused on killing their herds of horses. With other groups, they killed off the food supply (buffalo).

T. Roosevelt was in the Spanish American war, but that was 1898, long after the Indian Wars. Anyway, the statue could have shown an Indian scout and an African American who fought in that war with Roosevelt.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:23 am


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyHYIppHF9Y

Btw, afa Joe's last question regarding other Indians, the Comanches were considered the undisputed horsemasters. One reason is that they were among the first Plains people to come in contact with the Spanish. The Comanche's had an empire that was enabled primarily by their use of the horse. Also, don't believe the myth that the Comanche disappeared or were exterminated. Of course, there was no way for Comanche warrior culture would be allowed to survive. But, their relationship with the horse is as strong as ever. Don't ever take my word for it.

Here's another vid that explains more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRXXvm-zKTY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLLalxylPU0
Last edited by Steve James on Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:46 am

I think a statue of a mounted Comanche warrior would be great to stand in front of our Natural History museum. And, if they absolutely must have someone with a war bonnet, the should put Joe Medicine Crow --who belonged to the Crow tribe, and was the last Crow war chief. But, his story is goes much deeper. To become a war chief, you have to perform a few deeds. One of which is to physically touch an enemy but not kill him and escape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp6dyF-94kM&t=100s
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby roger hao on Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:32 am

Thanks Steve - OK take down Teddy -that is not a good look.
BTW - don't try to take the Boston statue in front of the Art museum.
and don't look at the one at Fruitlands museum in Harvard to replace it.
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:31 am

Context is everything. I'm not in favor of taking down statues just for the sake of taking down statues. I have to see the statue and judge for myself. I am totally in favor of people learning the history of the person/s represented and/or the reason a monument was erected. Some monuments don't reflect the views of the people alive today. What is erected in our time will reflect us. That's even if the representation --like older statues-- are primarily romanticizations.

I.e., there are lots of people who deserve being remembered without being idealized in stone. Nine out of ten people don't know the history of the statues they want to protect. They'll say it's about history, but it will have been erected in the 1950s. It's not a representation of history; it's the way people would like to remember what happened.

Oi Hoger, voce conhece a o Zumbi dos Palmares no Brasil? Ele tem uma festa cada novembro.
Image
https://static.historiadomundo.com.br/2 ... res-hm.jpg
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby vadaga on Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:19 am

I signed the petition to replace the Columbus statue in the North End in Boston with the orange t-rex from Rt.1 S in Saugus https://www.change.org/p/marty-walsh-re ... e-dinosaur :)
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby Steve James on Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:52 am

Afa ol Cristobal, ok, I actually think it's fair to have a statue of him in Columbus Circle. However, I think it's unfair to tell the story that he was the first person to discover the Americas. I think there should be a statue of the first people who lived in what's now NY. (They might be called the Delawares, but there were many groups). On one hand, there's this fantasy story of a guy who thought the world was round, etc., who ended up somewhere in the Caribbean (the present DR, to be exact. In fact, there used to be claims that he was buried there. See El Faro de Colon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Lighthouse

Otoh, there are his actions with regard to the native population there. It's a great story, actually. One can learn a lot about the Taino peoples, but you have to put Columbus's account alongside theirs. The rest of the Americas are generally far more cognizant of all the people who were important or legendary in the history of their country. We have individual moments, but they aren't part of the national history. For example, Columbus met the leader of a village. Who was he (or she)? Otherwise, what does this picture say?
Image

Um, fwiw, the main cacique (chief) then was Caonabo. If you want to read a warrior thriller, look up him and Anacaona. But, there are statues of him in the Caribbean. He's often called "El Primer Libertador Americano".
Image

If you read Spanish, or trust Googletranslate, here's his story.
https://pueblosoriginarios.com/biografias/caonabo.html
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby windwalker on Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:42 pm

Image


Nearly 5,000 students signed a petition that called for the removal of the Gandhi statute. Despite Gandhi’s status as a warrior for peace, the students allege that Gandhi held prejudices against various minority groups.

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020/07/ ... hi-statue/
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Re: Statues and symbols

Postby roger hao on Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:50 pm

Sim Steve - Eu o conheço - uma estátua que devemos manter

Also the airport in Maceio -
Zumbi dos Palmares Airport
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