Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

The following typical threads that plague martial arts sites will get moved here if not just deleted: 1 - My style is better than Your style" - 2 - "Internal & External" - 3 - Personal attacks - 4 - Threads that start well, but degenerate into a spiral of nonsense.

Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby BruceP on Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:39 am

LaoDan wrote:
BruceP wrote:And your commentary on trump says more about your own ethical consistency than it does his.

Republicans tended to lose my confidence in them when my state’s legislators passed a law requiring only “historical data” be used in planning/reviewing/regulating construction projects, negating any considerations of climate change. In my opinion they essentially legislated that our government could NOT rely on the latest scientific information and modeling, and HAD to rely only on outdated information! Talk about pandering to ignorance! They went on about “proof” and “opinion” and “elitism” and “brainwashing” and “censorship” and “authoritarianism” and “socialism” and “lack of freedom” etc. in many topics, including the climate “debate,” while ignoring the preponderance of evidence shown by critical scientific inquiry. I only have seen this trend continue, and become even more extreme over the years, and be applied to more and more subjects, and be amplified by social media... I do not think that it is a good trend for our country. But you apparently see things differently?


I don't live in the US so I'm totally apolitical when it comes to whatever is going on over there. But because I don't sing along to Orange Man Bad with you, you Assume that I'm in agreement with whatever it is you're opposed to? Black-and-White thinking right there. That's just more of your passive-aggressive BS that you've used in this thread to marginalize those whom you suspect of not understanding the issues while giving a pass to those that actually do demonstrate 'sloppy thinking' because... ? There are only a few people in this thread who are making it 'political', as you mentioned it in your wooden weapons thread where you quote part of something I wrote here as a pretext to your 'question'. You could have just asked your question.

AFA what I wrote about your ethical consistency, it kinda goes hand-in-hand with intellectual honesty. To cite your country's previous administration's policies and use of certain tactics while completely ignoring what has happened prior to the most recent inauguration, and since, is telling in that regard. Not a peep here from any of those making this thread political about the very same things you listed in your rant (see below) which are continuing under the current admin in their handling of the 'covid crisis'.

That you make excuses ("game changers") for sudden shifts and reversals of policies without acknowledging the facts, Re: moving the goalposts, points to either full-on Dunning Kruger, or poli-blindness - by choice? Fauci straight-up admitting to literally moving the goalposts in an interview. CDC quietly changing numbers when caught red-handed manipulating the counts and test thresholds. Just those examples should be enough to validate the concerns of anyone who expresses distrust in the "official information" being fed to the masses.

Passive-aggressive snobs who think that others don't understand the 'science' well enough that they can question it. 'Science' notwithstanding, it doesn't take a lot of intelligence to recognize the difference between moving the goalposts and adjusting courses of action as new understanding comes to light. Even a fool knows when they're being lied to and only a denser fool goes out of their way to defend the lies.

Intellectual Honesty
LaoDan wrote:-the insistence that they are the smartest and only they can fix things;
-the vicious attacks (including verbal, but for many also including physical) on opponents;
-the evasiveness (not meaning things the way they are taken, just joking, being misunderstood…);
-insisting that they are never wrong, and “doubling down” whenever they are questioned;
-lack of empathy, and difficulty of reflection on things, and lack of open-mindedness; black and white thinking;
-bullying;

Haven't seen any of that from team blue in the past 7 months, right? nope...
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby LaoDan on Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:35 pm

BruceP, I certainly do not lump you in with WW. Although you are Canadian (?) rather than American, I would think that your ideology was more closely aligned with Libertarians than with Republicans (or Democrats). I also realize that you do not support Trump (although there are some things that could be supported), and that we both (probably?) are rather anti-authoritarian. But you appear to enjoy playing devil’s advocate, so I am likely misreading you, as your posts can appear to be potentially different than your personal stances.

Up until the resurgence of COVID due to the Delta variant, I thought my posts were relatively objective, although I must admit that I have been losing my patience over the last several months, and my recent posts likely reflect that emotion.

I actually was somewhat in agreement with your early posts on this thread, those cautioning about trusting authority, especially when social and political considerations were being taken into account.

I can probably embrace the label of “passive-aggressive,” but I try to present counterpoints that allow readers to decide for themselves, while making the opposing view difficult to take seriously. I generally focus my posts on issues of science, and I do tend to pass on most matters of “sloppy thinking” when it appears to just be a matter of personal opinions that are being expressed. I DO stand by my example of the previous president’s behaviors in relation to characteristics of low level intelligence as probably related to the Dunning-Kruger effect and, while current and other administrations are/have been somewhat problematic, they are nowhere near as egregious, or as close to exemplifying the traits that were listed in my previous post. From my perspective, Americans are dealing with the remnants of Trumps ways of thought and behaviors, since many of his followers still think and behave this way.

Where we may differ significantly is that you apparently think that ”it doesn't take a lot of intelligence to recognize the difference between moving the goalposts and adjusting courses of action as new understanding comes to light.” Our disagreement about this is a case in point. I think that it is very difficult for laymen to understand science, and even a majority may have difficulty recognizing this difference. I do not see the evidence that “even a fool knows when they're being lied to,” but I do agree that “only a denser fool goes out of their way to defend the lies.” You certainly have the freedom to judge me as being in the false confidence peak of the Dunning-Kruger affect (everyone has areas of weakness as well as strengths), or as being “politically blind” - but others are also free to make their own judgments. The reliability of sources (or distrust of them) is one reason that this thread is so long.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby origami_itto on Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:43 pm

These are dangerous times. Never have so many people had so much access to so much knowledge and yet have been so resistant to learning anything. In the United States and other developed nations, otherwise intelligent people denigrate intellectual achievement and reject the advice of experts. Not only do increasing numbers of lay people lack basic knowledge, they reject fundamental rules of evidence and refuse to learn how to make a logical argument. In doing so, they risk throwing away centuries of accumulated knowledge and undermining the practices and habits that allow us to develop new knowledge.


Mainly about the USA, but hey, Canadians are Americans, too. We've got no Monopoly on discounting experts precisely because they're experts or defending our ignorance to the death.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/americas- ... -ignorance
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby vadaga on Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:02 am

My find of the day was 'The Herman Cain' awards which seem to be like Darwin awards for covid19...
https://slate.com/technology/2021/09/hermancainaward-subreddit-antivaxxer-deaths-cataloged.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/new/
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:28 am

the batshit crazy stupidity - is it possible for ANYONE to understand these people? If they get through that, do they FINALLY LEARN anything? ??? ::) :-\

it really does seem like some sort of Darwinian clear out of people who are hopelessly, hopelessly stupid - somehow infecting their entire clan with stupidity. Will any of them ever learn and start to explain it to others like themselves? You might think eventually with enough personal experience, one of them would learn and start telling others.

but if they survive via science after denying science, they will probably just say God did it.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:57 am

everything wrote:the batshit crazy stupidity - is it possible for ANYONE to understand these people? If they get through that, do they FINALLY LEARN anything? ??? ::) :-\

it really does seem like some sort of Darwinian clear out of people who are hopelessly, hopelessly stupid - somehow infecting their entire clan with stupidity. Will any of them ever learn and start to explain it to others like themselves? You might think eventually with enough personal experience, one of them would learn and start telling others.

but if they survive via science after denying science, they will probably just say God did it.


wow :-\

Does this apply to all "people" or only some "people"

You and others seem very selective in illustrating those, not wanting the vaccinations

Image
A Black Lives Matter leader is threatening an “uprising” over mandatory vaccinations and vaccine passports in New York.



https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021 ... id-system/

Will "you" now say BLM, is whats the word

" batshit crazy stupidity" ?

it really does seem like some sort of Darwinian clear out of people who are hopelessly, hopelessly stupid


yes, thats it..... clear out the people "hopelessly stupid"

who would you start with ?

Will you be going out to the rallies to tell them how stupid they are ?
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:34 am

windwalker wrote:
everything wrote:the batshit crazy stupidity - is it possible for ANYONE to understand these people? If they get through that, do they FINALLY LEARN anything? ??? ::) :-\

it really does seem like some sort of Darwinian clear out of people who are hopelessly, hopelessly stupid - somehow infecting their entire clan with stupidity. Will any of them ever learn and start to explain it to others like themselves? You might think eventually with enough personal experience, one of them would learn and start telling others.

but if they survive via science after denying science, they will probably just say God did it.


wow :-\

Does this apply to all "people" or only some "people"

You and others seem very selective in illustrating those, not wanting the vaccinations

Image
A Black Lives Matter leader is threatening an “uprising” over mandatory vaccinations and vaccine passports in New York.



https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021 ... id-system/

Will "you" now say BLM, is whats the word

" batshit crazy stupidity" ?

it really does seem like some sort of Darwinian clear out of people who are hopelessly, hopelessly stupid


yes, thats it..... clear out the people "hopelessly stupid"

who would you start with ?

Will you be going out to the rallies to tell them how stupid they are ?


It always goes to POC with you, one way or the other...A sad fixation.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:48 am

who would *I***** start with? lololol -argh- :) ::) ??? ??? ???

it's all SELF SELECTION
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:55 am

everything wrote:who would *I***** start with? lololol -argh- :) ::) ??? ??? ???

it's all SELF SELECTION


Just noting that your post and others seem to only reflect some groups
not noting other groups, exhibiting the same behaviors.


For example your references to religion

Would that include other religious faiths outside of the Christian faith?

Should a person be forced to be vaccinated while having no recourse of action should they suffer
an adverse reaction from the vaccination as some do?
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:06 am

A group that has very little choice in the matter, at very low risk for this virus and yet forced to receive vaccinations
or face the consequences of not doing so despite known risk.

Image

A new study of U.S. service members found higher than expected rates of heart inflammation following receipt of COVID-19 vaccines. It's a finding Defense Department researchers say should call attention to the condition, known as myocarditis, as a potential side effect of the immunizations.

In an article published Tuesday in JAMA Cardiology, U.S. Army, Navy and Air Force physicians described 23 cases of myocarditis in previously healthy males who developed the condition within four days of receiving a COVID-19 vaccine.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... cines.html
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby Quigga on Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:56 am

What irks me the most is people suddenly pretending to care about the value of human life. Or our politcians, for that matter. Bunch of hypocritcal bastards, 95% of them. I stay out of politics, it makes me too angry and sad. As if the healthcare system wasn't overloaded before. It's all about the money, in every even remotely background aspect of society. The structure is to make a few people richer and richer at the cost of everyone else. But that's nothing new for you, I suppose. The masses need a theater play to stay content, some semblance of sanity. All problems could be solved, everybody on the globe could live 2x or even 3x better than they do right now. But it's not wanted by the people who have actual power nor intended to be so by "Insert higher power of your choice here" (atheism is a set of believes as well - you can't live without believing in something, even if that something is nothing).

Historically speaking we're insanely well off in regards to average wealth and reduction in suffering, but it's frustrating to see amazing possibilieties on the horizon and we just seem to crawl at snail's pace towards them. Maybe I'm too impatient, maybe I underestimate how big of an undertaking it is to change infrastructure and tackle wealth distribution. It's a global learning experience and it won't work if we don't establish a new set of coherent values for everybody to live in harmony. There's nothing that truly connects people anymore other than individual freedom, all other values have been hollowed out and made into a laughing stock of their former selves. Maybe that's just my bias.

Nah, fuck that. Divide and conquer is the name of the game; and people gladly suck it up, celebrating their overvalued freedom while we get split more and more, being easier to control. BLM, Police lives matter, all lives matter, whatever else public activism group - they have zero influence on the game at large. "But how do you change society to the better?" You don't. You work on achieving wisdom in this lifetime and furthering your own evolution as a being. If all "small being parts" would strive towards that, then the "big being part" would improve as well, naturally.

However, most of what I wrote won't be of intrest to people having to work 2 or 3 jobs just to sustain a life with shitty circumstances. Maybe one could give them some hope,

We're at a critical time where we have to engage in an intensive dialogue about what's important to us; more than ever we have to be free of prejudice from all sides of the discussion table and establish a new clarity, new templates of life young people can follow that lead to the best possible outcome decades down the line. Insanely hard to get right, but doable with much thought and serious engagement. It's no wonder we have a mental health crisis at hand - all that which people used to orient themselves in life and society was weakened, bla bla, I'm repeating myself. If all you have is freedom then you're perfectly lost. Nietzsche said that the Übermensch would create his own values through carthasis, IIRC. However, not everyone is capable of that process, nor is it a realistic expectation that every new life has to define it's own values - you end up in the chaos we have right now.

As for Covid - IMO the evidence is pretty clear it broke out from a lab that engaged in questionable engineering of viruses normally prohibited by law, but made possible by a loophole, as is often the case. The lab wasn't fullfilling the appropriate security measures. As for getting vacc'ed or not - I don't care. I'm vacc'ed myself.

Politicians had to do something or the public would begin to seriously questioning their competence and ability to manage power and wealth, since people close to the ordinary citizen started dying. Not as if homelessness, mental health, other curable diseases, etc wouldn't be already enough unsolved problems to see them for the scum they are. Yet again, I should be thankful for the people jumping into the poisonous pit that is politics and producing some sort of valuable / working policy. I'd quit in under a week from all the ass kissing and infighting. The world ain't all sunshine and roses and more often than not there is no one solution that is approprate for everybody.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby everything on Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:11 pm

People who want to exploit stupidity will be harder to fight.

They have power, money, organization, etc.

So you would think helping individuals make a smarter choice would be the easier thing.

Yes they’re manipulate, but when they encounter the overwhelming truth, some of them actually can finally learn something before it’s too late.

That sub does give an award for those who turned it around.

My ex sister in law seemed to be going down the idiot path but eventually listened to reason (and probably peer pressure).

Conservatives and liberals like to point out how people are sheep. They’re both right!!!!!

For some reason we all do what others do.

Which raises a question of how does one even know if one can think critically.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:37 pm

As for Covid - IMO the evidence is pretty clear it broke out from a lab that engaged in questionable engineering of viruses normally prohibited by law, but made possible by a loophole, as is often the case. The lab wasn't fullfilling the appropriate security measures. As for getting vacc'ed or not - I don't care. I'm vacc'ed myself.


Would agree with much of this, with the addition

Image



Science is supposedly a self-correcting community of experts who constantly check each other’s work.
So why didn’t other virologists point out that the Andersen group’s argument was full of absurdly large holes?

Perhaps because in today’s universities speech can be very costly.
Careers can be destroyed for stepping out of line.

Any virologist who challenges the community’s declared view risks having his next grant application turned down by the panel of fellow virologists that advises the government grant distribution agency.


https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-ori ... -at-wuhan/

It becomes quite difficult to discern which scientist or science one should trust.

We were told getting the vaccine would prevent one from getting the virus
later to find out, one can still get the virus either becoming a carrier not affected or the effects being mitigated by the vaccine

What was a "choice" now made into a life decision affecting in one's employment.

The un-vaccinated, said to be able to infect the vaccinated, so should be
forced to be vaccinated ?
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby LaoDan on Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:05 pm

windwalker wrote:
A new study of U.S. service members found higher than expected rates of heart inflammation following receipt of COVID-19 vaccines. It's a finding Defense Department researchers say should call attention to the condition, known as myocarditis, as a potential side effect of the immunizations.

In an article published Tuesday in JAMA Cardiology, U.S. Army, Navy and Air Force physicians described 23 cases of myocarditis in previously healthy males who developed the condition within four days of receiving a COVID-19 vaccine.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... cines.html

That report seams reasonable. Other studies have also reported a slight increase over the expected numbers of cases of myocarditis from being vaccinated for COVID. In this report there were 23 cases when only 8 or fewer were expected out of a sample size of 436,000 males, or about (23-8)/436,000=<0.004% of the vaccinated military members. And like this report, where 16 of the 23 observed cases resolved within a week [(23-16)/436,000=<0.002% persisting past 1 week], other studies have found that the condition typically resolved within a few weeks. This report does not, however, compare the information with other studies, studies that health officials should also consider. For example, it is also known that COVID infections (as well as also being commonly seen in other viral infections) also cause increased rates of myocarditis, among other symptoms, and is most commonly seen in young adults aged 20-40 (e.g., the primary demographic for military members, which in the report are 20-51 y/o), and men are more frequently affected than women.

Viral infection caused myocarditis, in generally healthy individuals, generally clears up within two or three weeks, but some DO take months, and some persist indefinitely. It is definitely a factor to consider, both from natural viral infections and from vaccines. With that being said, I am uncertain what you are trying to imply, if anything, with your post.
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Re: Crazy (and not-so-crazy) shit about Covid-19

Postby LaoDan on Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:15 pm

windwalker wrote:We were told getting the vaccine would prevent one from getting the virus

Who told you that? That was NEVER true for ANY vaccine!
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