Roe V Wade OVerturned

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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby Dmitri on Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:32 am

origami_itto wrote:I challenge anyone anywhere to provide documentation of this happening.

I was making a point; Steve got it. It's more or less as ludicrous as my "other-side argument", where a positive pregnancy test equates to "a person" (even if some "lunatics" say that's the case).

I don't believe it needs to be a case-by-case, it is very simple. If a woman wants to terminate her pregnancy, she should be able to have safe and easy access to an abortion, full stop.

Why do we feel the government should be involved in a woman's health choices and family planning? Why do we feel like we should punish women for having sex?

Certainly this has nothing to do with "punishment for having sex", as there are countless ways of doing so without pregnancy being involved.
But I am with you on government's involvement in women's choices though -- I was actually making that very point, at least in part.

I completely disagree that "it is very simple" though; if it were, this issue wouldn't have been one of the hottest topics that never seems to be resolved to everyone's even mild satisfaction. How about surrogate pregnancies? How about she makes that decision under duress? Under substance influence? Etc., etc., etc.

Incidentally, that very "it's simple" idea is one of the primary causes of the disagreement, because I can just hear someone from "the other side" say something very similar: "It's very simple. The moment you can hear a heartbeat on the monitor, you have a living person with a beating heart, so terminating that life is murder. Full stop."
With at least as much conviction as you, I'm sure.

I hope people will start seeing this in a more emotionally-detached and empathic fashion... Realize that the "other side" is also fairly intelligent human beings with feelings, just like them. That's a potential path out of this mess (if there can even be one) -- a conversation based on at least an attempt at mutual acceptance, instead of digging deeper into their respective cozy little trenches.
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby yeniseri on Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:54 pm

Women know well the hypocracy of many men and it shows up all the time.
If any women's group suggested that men get a vasectomy and put it into law, many men would literally sh*t their pants! That is the hypocracy
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby origami_itto on Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:33 am

It's as simple as slavery. A lot of people had a lot of great reasons why that made sense too.

The sides are allowing women bodily autonomy or forcing them to give birth.

Duress, substance abuse? Okay? I mean that goes for any choice, right? Do we really need to whatabout edge cases?

If she wants it, she should get it, full stop, no need to explain.

When a woman comes to us and says she has made a decision about her life we need to honor that decision. We don't need to start examining whether she's on drugs or under duress.
Last edited by origami_itto on Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby vadaga on Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:00 am

off the topic but vasectomy is not a deterrent for rapists. castration is more what one would be looking for.
on the topic I do think that it's wrong not to give a woman who was raped access to an abortion.
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:35 am

The vasectomies would be for husbands. But, ya know, one of the next laws the SC will question is whether a state can prohibit married couples from using contraceptives. I don't recall the name of the case off hand.

Afa rapists, physical castration would be the preferred punishment. It'd never happen, though it'd be better than execution (or life imprisonment, if one is 'pro-life').
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:51 am

It's as simple as slavery. A lot of people had a lot of great reasons why that made sense too.


Big difference. Any slave -who could speak- could argue with their master for their rights, and they did.

People might argue that embryos and fetuses would want to be born, but no one can possibly know that. We know for a fact that some people who are born will take their own lives. Many will say they wish they'd never been born. People also give their lives for others. Who wouldn't die for their mom? If you were in your mom's womb, would you want to come out if it killed her? Would you even want to come out?

The point is that one can only answer those questions for oneself. Slaves told their enslavers exactly what they wanted. The enslavers were only arguing among themselves -which was/is always a joke. Actually, it's like men arguing about what rights a woman should or shouldn't have, like we are now. If I were a woman, I wouldn't pay attention to what men say, and I'd make up my own mind and defend my own rights -with any means at my disposal, from tubal ligations to giving hubby a Bonner.
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:52 am

Ah yes, and 2 years later, the SC unanimously ruled (Loving v. Virginia) that anti-miscegenation laws are unconstitutional --which allowed Asians and "whites" to marry in California. And, that decision was preceded by anti-segregation laws, which were preceded by laws preventing women from voting. Only the last of which is determined by the Constitution, and only because of an Amendment -though Amendments have been un-amended.

Anyway, there are plenty of people who think these were bad laws. FTS.
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:32 am

Laws change

Current law can be interesting


In California, the killing of an unborn child (fetus) is murder and is covered under Penal Code Section 187. The California Supreme Court has ruled that knowledge of the existence of the fetus is not required to convict of murder (People v. Taylor (2004) 32 Cal. 4th 863, 868). There is also a five year enhancement for an injury inflicted during the commission of a felony that results in a miscarriage of a fetus (CA Penal Code Section 12022.9).

Of course, medical abortions are excluded from both the murder and enhancement statutes, so long as the pregnant woman consented to terminating the pregnancy.

https://www.lacriminaldefenseattorney.c ... /feticide/

With consent it's not murder, without it is... :-\

And yet

HANFORD, Calif. — Prosecutors in Central California on Monday dropped a murder charge against a woman in connection with the death of her unborn child through drug use.

The decision by the Kings County district attorney’s office to dismiss the charge against Adora Perez was a “victory for justice and the rule of law,” California Atty. Gen. Rob Bonta said in a statement.



https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... is-dropped

If the drugs killed her and her fetus,
would the person who gave / sold her the drugs if caught be charged with two murders.. :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby origami_itto on Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:47 pm

I'm not pro-murdering babies.

I'm pro-Becky who found out at her 20-week anatomy scan that the infant she had been so excited to bring into this world had developed without life sustaining organs.

I'm pro-Susan who was sexually assaulted on her way home from work, only to come to the horrific realization that her assailant planted his seed in her when she got a positive pregnancy test result a month later.

I'm pro-Theresa who hemorrhaged due to a placental abruption, causing her parents, spouse, and children to have to make the impossible decision on whether to save her or her unborn child.

I'm pro-little Cathy who had her innocence ripped away from her by someone she should have been able to trust and her 11-year-old body isn't mature enough to bear the consequence of that betrayal.

I'm pro-Melissa who's working two jobs just to make ends meet and has to choose between bringing another child into poverty or feeding the children she already has because her spouse walked out on her.

I'm pro-Brittany who realizes that she is in no way financially, emotionally, or physically able to raise a child.

I'm pro-Emily who went through IVF, ending up with SIX viable implanted eggs requiring selective reduction to ensure the safety of her and a SAFE number of fetuses.

I'm pro-Jessica who is FINALLY getting the strength to get away from her physically abusive spouse only to find out that she is carrying the monster's child.

I'm pro-Vanessa who went into her confirmation appointment after YEARS of trying to conceive only to hear silence where there should be a heartbeat.

I'm pro-Lindsay who lost her virginity in her sophomore year with a broken condom and now has to choose whether to be a teenage mom or just a teenager.

I'm pro-Courtney who just found out she's already 13 weeks along, but the egg never made it out of her fallopian tube so either she terminates the pregnancy or risks dying from internal bleeding.

You can argue and say that I'm pro-choice all you want, but the truth is:
I'm pro-life.
Their lives.
Women's lives.

You don't get to pick and choose which scenarios should be accepted. It's not about which stories you don't agree with. It's about fighting for the women in the stories that you do agree with and the CHOICE that was made.

Women's rights are meant to protect ALL women, regardless of their situation!

Overturning Roe does not stop abortions, it stops SAFE abortions!

Abortion is healthcare.
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:13 pm

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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby origami_itto on Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:19 pm

As usual citing paragons of intellectual honesty.
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:50 pm

You don't get to pick and choose which scenarios should be accepted. It's not about which stories you don't agree with.


Sure you do. "You" just can't impose your choice on anyone else. Btw, I agree with you. I just think Becky, Liz, or Candace should be able to decide for herself regardless of my opinion. I don't think Becky can decide for Liz, either. Partners can have an opinion, too; but, it's still up to Becky.

I don't think it's irrational or unusual to distinguish between cells, viable fetuses, and babies. That's philosophical muck. Men waste millions of potential lives every time they jack off. It's just as wasteful as homosexuality. The Bible doesn't approve of it, and it's not guaranteed in the Constitution (though some people would get really pissed if the gov't started watching).

People who don't see how rights are taken away deserve to have their rights taken away. Happy July Fourth weekend.
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:20 am

A 10-year-old girl is raped. The State forces her to remain pregnant and tells her to consider it an “opportunity.”

This isn’t Iran. This isn’t Gilead. This isn’t hypothetical.

This happened today in Ohio.

Source:

https://eu.cincinnati.com/story/news/20 ... 788415001/
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby LaoDan on Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:29 am

I guess that I can understand Christians believing that their God created them, therefore every event that would create another human would be a sacred act. But, conversely, I cannot understand why a biological event that has so many difficulties involved with it that the vast majority of fertilized eggs fail to proceed naturally all the way to birth, and therefore end up dead, should be considered to be divine! And I thought that the USA was supposed to have a separation of church and state! The topic of abortion, as it is currently framed, appears to me to be politicized Christian theology. Please give me freedom FROM religion!
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Re: Roe V Wade OVerturned

Postby Steve James on Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:08 am

It's not about Christianity, or the Constitution. Abortion didn't become illegal until the 19th century; if it were a Christian tenet, it would have been illegal since Jesus's time. In fact, it would have been illegal in Judaism (Jesus's religion). In fact, in Judaism, "life" specifically begins at birth: i.e., when a being starts breathing.

That gets to the "freedom of religion" bs. The Founders wanted it because they saw hundreds of thousands of people killed in England because of religion, specifically Christians murdering Christians. Afa as "freedom," though, that's bullshit because people used Christianity to justify murdering Indians and enslaving Africans. Puritan pastors led massacres of Indian villages, and put bounties for Indian scalps.

Religion, Christianity in particular, isn't bad, neither is the Declaration of Independence. It's all about the people. Makes me think of the pastor who recently called for gays to be killed.
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