People's Republic of Capitalism

[CaliG]

I'm watching Koppel's episode 1 right now. It looks like it's going to be a good series on the Discovery Channel.

[CaliG]

Part 2 is on tonight, check it out.

It goes deeply into the economic relationship between the States and China better than anything else I've seen.

If you watch this you'll understand why China is going to be the number one superpower in a very short time.

Why? Because our whole economy depends on China.

[Bär]

You guys are commies? Then why am I seeing rudimentary free markets?

[steelincotton]

I work in the financial industry and the latest buzz term is...... Flat is the new HIGH!

Our "SuperPOWER" status is fading faster than a speeding bullet. Saudia Arabia and China own our ignorant greedy arses now. The last eight years have done so much damage to our country I'm afraid the best is behind us. For the first time since we've established our Constitution, parents today, do NOT believe their children will have a better life. That is so sad to me.

[CaliG]

I agree that the good old days are gone.

In part they talk about all the jobs that are going to China, yet those same people who are losing their jobs to China buy most of their stuff from China at Walmart.

It's just the way it is...

[MikeC]

That's right. One of the big problems in this country is that a lot of people shop at WalMart but they still vote Democrap.
;>/

[CaliG]

Both shop at Walmart bro.

Besides there's no turning back the clock.

China is funding our wars.

Not to mention China would still be the next super power whether we existed or not.

Contrary to popular belief in this country, the US does not own or control the world.

But whatever...I suppose turning this into another thread blaming political parties is easier than accepting the fact that we've been beat at our own game.

[Chanchu]

"Our "SuperPOWER" status is fading faster than a speeding bullet. Saudia Arabia and China own our ignorant greedy arses now. The last eight years have done so much damage to our country I'm afraid the best is behind us. For the first time since we've established our Constitution, parents today, do NOT believe their children will have a better life. That is so sad to me."

Sad so sad but true...

Reason for this is horse shit American leadership- point blank- they sold they country out to make money short term and they fixed the deck so their grandchildren will be worse off than they were...
yah don't drill in alaska or off shore and drive the biggest SUV that you can find that will carry your fat ass, cause well cuase its important that we depend on other countrys and allow them to control us...
Use the military as a social experiment. Don't have real military leaders have political wonks in uniform, that don't dare to tell the truth. Make sure we don't make anything here, and make sure nothing is anyones fault..

Have a administration in power who does not listen to people who know the truth and try to offer good advice because it does not fit what they want to hear- and who does not learn from the past.

Create a new age moron culture and even though we have people from anywhere on the planet don't understand other peoples or cultures... Or how the rest of the world works...

Worship the envirionment and animals and don't care about human beings

Instant every thing and instant gratification even though you never earned it....

Thats how it came to this..

Verily--We are fracked........

[Wuyizidi]

I agree that the good old days are gone.

In part they talk about all the jobs that are going to China, yet those same people who are losing their jobs to China buy most of their stuff from China at Walmart.

It's just the way it is...

That's just how free market capitalism works right? The objective of any business owner is to maximize profit. When China and India abandoned socialist ideology in managing economy, suddenly there is a 40% increase in the available global work force. And that workforce was living under $1 per day. If you are Walmart, Nike, or GM, what would you do, keep producing your products at a much higher cost than say, your Japanese competitors who are going to China?

This is basically about supply and demand of labor. You can substitute China/India with Mexico, or whatever other poor country. The result will be the same. That golden age people are reminiscent about is mostly 1950 - 1990. In the 200 years before that Europe was the world's dominant powers, they had far flung global empires. Then they managed to destroy much of that in the two world wars, leaving America the lone economic superpower in the world. That situation cannot stay permanent right?

The major question is now, what do you do. Build walls? Shoot people who try to come to this country? Start wars abroad with those rising super powers? Are these real solutions?

These larger forces (economics, people in other countries wising up to natural laws of free market) we have very limited control over, but so much of our problems are self-made:

• short term vision (the big 3 automakers churning out SUV's and not investing in hybrid technology),
• excessive corporate greed (loaning money to people who don't qualify, then package that in clever financial instrument and sell it to someone else, making it their problem, pocket big bonuses),
• spending more than saving (in 2007, the average American spent $101 for every $100 they earned, does anyone really need the latest iPhone?),
• ignorant (we can ignore millennium old ethnic+religious rivalry and make them JUST LIKE US in no time), ideology-driven (this is my political agenda, I'm not going to second-guess myself even when reality prove stubborn) government,
• crony capitalism: first you get power, than you use that power to grant economic monopoly to yourself/your buddies
• willful negligence (what is good for corporations is what is good for America, we should all get out of their way, because they know best),
• starting trillion dollar wars without raising taxes but at the same time make permanent tax cuts for the top .5% super-rich.
• ...

So I have a simple rule when it comes to voting, if an issue (gay marriage, abortion...) does not affect how well we as a nation can compete in this new world, then I don't factor it in my decision at all.

We all love martial art, and therefore we all love heroes. What makes someone a hero? For one thing a hero is generally someone who is not passive, but rather someone who is positive, who actively try to do the right thing. A hero is not someone who is afraid of a future shaped by natural changes. For example, if you only have a high school education and works in a skilled/semi-skilled manual labor job, you should realize there is still 1 billion people in China who lives under $1 per day, and you cannot compete with them based on your physical skills, that it doesn't matter you live in America. You need to upgrade your skill, do what those 1 billion people cannot do... Use your heroes as guides, what would they do? what would you do, if you were not afraid? Be the hero in the story of your life.


Wuyizidi

[Andy_S]

Is it that simple?

So - China makes a lot of low end stuff. OK. And its moving up the value ladder. Still OK. And its got a LOT of consumers.

But:
Is its language a world language?
Is its culture - TV, film, music, Internet content, literature, sports - spreading worldwide?
Are its universities and research institutes coming up with green field tech?
Are its companies filing global patents?
Do its companies own any top 100 global brands?
Are its financial markets global hubs?
Does its military have off-shore power?
Does it offer a lifestyle that people around the world aspire to?
Etc, etc, etc.

Yes, there are a lot of people and a lot of money in China...but I am not sure this is the end of American power, even if the Chinese GDP tops American GDP.

[Steve James]

Maybe it's not so black and white. Up until recently, military power was equivalent to economic power: it was called imperialism. If meant having control of raw materials, cheap or free labor and the means of production (factories). We could argue for a while whether this form of imperialism ended with the Third Reich, the Soviet Union or whether it is just ending now. I.e., China is becoming an economic superpower without depending on using military force outside its borders. China doesn't need Tibet for economic reasons.

Moreover, China doesn't need to be "#1". The question I think Wuyidizi and others raise is about how America/ns react to the perception that they will no longer be #1. Will we use our military to "secure our interests"? If that includes the uninterrupted flow of oil through the Straits of Hormuz, does that mean we must go to war?

Otoh, Andy is right; but that's the paradox. "American" culture is the ideal, in many parts of the world, even among those who say that they hate it. But, let's face it, Chinese people and culture have been influential. Er, take EF for instance, but not to mention movies, etc., and let's not forget Chinese food. There are Chinese restaurants in small towns --ok, compare the number of French restos in your town. The other thing is that one could say that the Chinese, in China, want the benefits of a modern, 21st century, life. The same life that Americans have come to expect having, and expect that the 3rd world doesn't. Of course, the pardox is that we claim to want and spend lots of money to do just that. Yet, when they get to the point where they can do so, they must inevitably use us the same way we used them. I.e., to protect their interests and improve their way of life.

Imo, the solution is to find a better way of life: one that doesn't require the exploitation of others. If we get beaten at that, we'll be better off. They idolize us. But, India and China make up almost 1/2 the people in the world. Everybody's got to look ahead.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Is it that simple?

So - China makes a lot of low end stuff. OK. And its moving up the value ladder. Still OK. And its got a LOT of consumers.

But:
Is its language a world language? It is spoken by more people than speak english on the whole planet.
Is its culture - TV, film, music, Internet content, literature, sports - spreading worldwide? is anybodies worldwide or merely percieved to be so? People in asia watch a lot of chinese tv and even in my hometown we have an entire mandarin language station with exclusive chinese programming. I live in the largest city in Canada.
Are its universities and research institutes coming up with green field tech? The top 25 percentile in chinese universities is more than the combined student body of all american universities and they work on all the same things taht we do so, yes
Are its companies filing global patents? yes
Do its companies own any top 100 global brands? yes
Are its financial markets global hubs? they own america don't they?
Does its military have off-shore power? they are nuke capable and one of the largest threats militarily speaking on this planet. A sleeping giant if you will in the sense of military might.
Does it offer a lifestyle that people around the world aspire to? in america you can have a shitty lifestyle or a great one! the same is true of china
Etc, etc, etc. ?

Yes, there are a lot of people and a lot of money in China...but I am not sure this is the end of American power, even if the Chinese GDP tops American GDP.

Besides my bold points, I would say, America never controlled the world except in it's own collective mind and media. America is small by comparison to asia in general economically, military wise and so on. America has some neat gadgetry, but when it comes down to it, they don't have anything that can significantly minimize the power of india an china and all their allies. America is merely their customer and consumer of their goods. There are differences, but all your points are indicative of the general ignorance that many in america and europe (less so in europe) have about the rest of the world in general.

[jasonf]

I will deffinatley tune in for the coming episodes of People's republic of capitalism, the next 50 years are going to be a very exciting (depending on your deffinition of exciting) time to see where the US, China, EU, Russia, India... all manage to position themselves in the worlds Power/Economic Struggle.
More than anything, I as an American fear China for it's NATIONALISM, "I am doing this to make my country stronger, I want China to get better." Multiply that by 1 billion and you have a force that may achieve unimaginable heights.

[CaliG]

I will deffinatley tune in for the coming episodes of People's republic of capitalism, the next 50 years are going to be a very exciting (depending on your deffinition of exciting) time to see where the US, China, EU, Russia, India... all manage to position themselves in the worlds Power/Economic Struggle.
More than anything, I as an American fear China for it's NATIONALISM, "I am doing this to make my country stronger, I want China to get better." Multiply that by 1 billion and you have a force that may achieve unimaginable heights.

I agree and as someone who has lived in China I have to say that blaming the US government for anything is ridiculous. The fact is China has spurred it's population of 1.3 billion to embrace capitalism and work themselves to the bone to get rich, prosper and improve their country and it's worked.

There is nothing the US or anyone could have done to stop them. In fact the largest amount of "foreign" investment in the PRC that kick started this whole thing off came from Taiwan and overseas Chinese.

(Also why would the US want to stop them they are the biggest consumers of Cadillacs in the world.)

For those who think the US could have done something to stay on top haven't been to China. For example Beijing has built the largest airport in the world in less than a year, in time for the Olympics. Where as in London it took over 20 years to build an additional wing to Heathrow and in New York we still haven't broke ground for the new World Trade Center.

In fact I remember in my own neighborhood in Shanghai there was a little shopping center where I'd go to buy DVDs and noodles. I picked up some DVDS and couple of days later when I went back the whole place was demolished and a new shopping center was already underway. Who can compete with that?

[Mike Strong]

How ironic, ...

... there is no "red tape" in Red China.

But then China isn't really under the control of Communists, - they are LEGALISTS IN COMMUNIST CLOTHING.

... wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of those guys.