Man becapitates passenger on bus!

[shawnsegler]

I'd guess the most that could get to him something like effectively if they were working in tandem would be three...single file until they got to em and then the two backup guys going over the seats on either side.

S

[Steve James]

Sure, there is definitely a tactical way to approach the situation. But, a) that requires coordination and would take time. In this case, one minute would already be too late; b) it requires thinking in terms of "acceptable losses" --but civilians (humans) don't normally think that way-- or not thinking of personal injury at all.

One example is the "flight that fought back" on 9/11. At some point, imo, they weren't fighting to survive; they were fighting to save lives, even if they didn't. But, that took organization and the lack of other choices. Nowadays, though, see what happens to you if you say "bomb" on a flight.

The people on the bus weren't trained, and it hadn't happened before, and many of them had a simple choice between a door and a madman with a knife. It was at night, and many of them had to make the choice after being awakened from their sleep by screams. I just can't fault them. I feel sorry for them. I don't think that anyone could have more doubts about what he or she "might" have been able to do or "could" have done.

[shawnsegler]

My point was even with a defined tactical situation the worst problem for the becapitator is three guy...but mostly probably just one at a time really...which makes for a good reason not to throw around the number 40 as if it was significant other than to tell you how many people were there. At most the perp is going to have to deal with a couple of guys..so it's irrelevant.

Just sayin.

S- doesn't mean somebody shouldn't have done something about it though

[Steve James]

I agree with you about the numbers. What I'm saying is that this sort of coordinated tactical response doesn't just emerge in one minute from a group of strangers. You're absolutely right that higher numbers doesn't mean much in this situation. I also agree with Mike C's sentiment that "someone" should help; I just think it's not something that you can expect someone to do. Even if someone does, it wouldn't say a thing about the group because they all couldn't get to the guy if they tried.

[Darthwing Teorist]

Since we're in scenarios, with coordination and some tools, you can have 8 people attacking him in the aisle: dude in front has a shield of some sort. 2 other dudes with shields take his flanks. If he does not retreat, the dudes on the flanks can protect people to get behind him: one guy with a shield and another with a long weapon (staff, hokey stick etc). Then you can have 2 guys with long weapons taking positions behind the dudes on flanking him. The last guy with a weapon gets behind the initial guy with the shield.

Of course, this is if he's in the aisle and stays put etc. It's just fantasy but right now we're talking about fantasies.

[strawdog]

I've played out a similar scenario a while back during force on force training. The scenario was in a plane with a knife wielding bad guy. I used an open newspaper and disarmed the guy.

[Steve James]

"Overconfidence kills." - Leo T. Gaje
"The confidence of the amateur is the envy of the professional." - Tim Cartmell

[Darthwing Teorist]

I don't doubt that apprehending the guy can be done. But the adrenaline dump may make things more difficult in real life, even for someone with great training. So there are probably very few people capable of doing that. These people were mostly civilians taken by surprise. Also, in order to save the victim they needed to act withing seconds because the victim was getting stabbed at a very high rate, that means that whoever was to act, should have been one of the people nearby.

Strawdog, I would like to hear more about how you used the open newspaper. Was it to "blind" the attacker? Or to wrap it around his arm?

[strawdog]

It was just a training scenario, Steven. I'm just sayin' that I succesfully solved the problem in training. You don't have to re-quote the quotes on my signature.

I'm not going to go into details on how I figured to solve the problem when it was presented, but I can tell you that it has a lot to do with preparation, awareness, and willingness to act. That's all.

[Steve James]

Why the roll eyes with your own quote?

[Bär]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, so I apologize if I'm repeating here, but....

Dude was good as dead after just a couple of stabs (of course he got many more than that) with a "Rambo knife" to the chest...a few seconds into the whole thing.

It's completely dreamland to think that guy could have been saved. Maybe he could have been saved if there were EMTs right there when it happened and the killer only stabbed a few times. Maybe.

The killer was contained and no-one else got hurt. What happened was a best case scenario. No more could have been done except maybe stop the guy from becaptitation and cannabalization. That's hardly worth the risk of a rescue attempt in a bus.

[MikeC]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, so I apologize if I'm repeating here, but....

Dude was good as dead after just a couple of stabs (of course he got many more than that) with a "Rambo knife" to the chest...a few seconds into the whole thing.

"All of a sudden, we all heard this scream, this bloodcurdling scream," passenger Garnet Caton told CBC television

.

Which means he was still alive.

It's completely dreamland to think that guy could have been saved. Maybe he could have been saved if there were EMTs right there when it happened and the killer only stabbed a few times. Maybe.

How do you know? It was nighttime, they were in the back of the bus and all's you heard was a scream. Then the sheeple stood there and basically did nothing until the bus pulled over.

"The attack continued as passengers fled the bus and waited for police on a desolate stretch of the TransCanada Highway near Portage la Prairie, Manitoba."

Poor kid.


MikeC

[Finny]

how do YOU know the bloodcurdling scream wasn't the bad guy screaming as he hacks into the vic's body?

that's the point - you don't know anything of the details, yet you happily call everone sheeple and shit on them for how they reacted in what is obviously a fucked up, panic inducing scenario.

my bet is you'd be first in line with the 'sheeple', mike

[MikeC]

how do YOU know the bloodcurdling scream wasn't the bad guy screaming as he hacks into the vic's body?

that's the point - you don't know anything of the details, yet you happily call everone sheeple and shit on them for how they reacted in what is obviously a fucked up, panic inducing scenario.

my bet is you'd be first in line with the 'sheeple', mike

You wouldn't know Funny, you and your bf would be the first ones out the door.

[Darthwing Teorist]

Mike, like I said, I agree with you that ideally people would have done something early on to save him. But, I don't think that it is a realistic expectation. I have been trained in knife offense and defense even with some medium pressure testing. When someone who knew what they were doing, pumped stabs at me, I got stabbed a few times, maybe 10 times (the drill would have been stopped automatically at 30) before I managed to immobilize the weapon. And this was in training, where I knew the drill, I saw people go through it, so I was prepared as to what to expect. My adrenaline levels were probably optimal.

What I don't like about your arguments, is looking down at the people involved in the situation, EVEN THOUGH THEY DID ATTEMPT A RESCUE. It just wasn't the first thing that they did.

I am really curious, in that situation, what makes you think that you could have done better? How do YOU know that you could have kept your wits and motor skills in order to deal with the guy in the first few seconds of chaos and confusion?