what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:43 am

It was created in Taiwan and is practiced in Malaysia as well
It is a short form with 5 seperate techniques
I can't remember his name but it was the guy who took over from Cheng
He was practicing 5 animals and Cheng told him it was already in his tai chi
Cheng told him to come back the next day and he would show him how
Next day Cheng had the form
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:42 am

wayne hansen wrote:It was created in Taiwan and is practiced in Malaysia as well
It is a short form with 5 seperate techniques


Interesting. Many Tai chi teachers have their own "five movements" or five drills that works like a condensed version of their whole system.
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby yeniseri on Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:46 am

-The yangsheng view is that as waist allegedly leads then everything else follows (think whipping action of invigorating renduam)i (jingluo/meridians) while providing the contraction/release/expansion of the middle, upper and lower jiao. It ends up being a whole body exercise from this point of view. These type of movements assists the lymphatic system through purposeful and habitual movement.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/900c/3 ... 1c4b38.pdf
Source
Here are some elements associated with Cloud Hands (yun shou) per a modernist perspective. Exerpted from" Simpler Eight-Form Easy Tai Chi for Elderly Adult" by Fuzhong Li, K. John Fisher, Peter Harmer, and Machiko Shirai
"hand-eye and upper and lower extremity coordination, rotational activities, movement continuity, coordinated breathing, and a clear differentiation between solid and empty stances. ....There are challenges to learning Tai Chi. First, learning its sequence is a cognitive challenge, Tai Chi practice usually involves the need to memorize names associated with each posture and sequence of postures....... Second, Tai Chi practice often requires high levels of coordination between upper and lower extremities, such as exactly where a foot or a hand should be at each moment in a posture

8 shi taijiquan (aka Beijing New Style 8 Form) may be stated to be "simpler" or simple (it is obviously shorter) but there are biomedical/biomechanical forces that have application that many are unfamilar with, or were incapapbe of seeing/visualizing.
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:21 pm

The yangsheng view is that as waist allegedly leads then everything else follows (think whipping action of invigorating renduam)i (jingluo/meridians) while providing the contraction/release/expansion of the middle, upper and lower jiao. It ends up being a whole body exercise from this point of view. These type of movements assists the lymphatic system through purposeful and habitual movement.


Again and as always, it depends on how you interpret and understand the movement. Most people does it with arms completely disconnected from their body like waving away flies. So obviously you need to do it "correct". But then again, styles and lineages can do the movement differently. So what is a "correct" "yun shou" / "wave hands in clouds?" Well, like BKF does it of course. :P
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:44 pm

Bao wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:It was created in Taiwan and is practiced in Malaysia as well
It is a short form with 5 seperate techniques


Interesting. Many Tai chi teachers have their own "five movements" or five drills that works like a condensed version of their whole system.


I learnt the 5 flows early in my training
Brush knee
Cloud hands
Repulse monkey
Grasp sparrow
Wild horse
They were good to practice
Chengs 5 animals are quite different to that
I have a student who has learnt most of my system but I have explained to him why I won't teach him 5 animals
Even though the noi gung in them would be good for him the special way of moving would emphasise his mistakes
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby Trick on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:27 pm

wayne hansen wrote:
Bao wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:It was created in Taiwan and is practiced in Malaysia as well
It is a short form with 5 seperate techniques


Interesting. Many Tai chi teachers have their own "five movements" or five drills that works like a condensed version of their whole system.


I learnt the 5 flows early in my training
Brush knee
Cloud hands
Repulse monkey
Grasp sparrow
Wild horse
They were good to practice
Chengs 5 animals are quite different to that
I have a student who has learnt most of my system but I have explained to him why I won't teach him 5 animals
Even though the noi gung in them would be good for him the special way of moving would emphasise his mistakes

Ok I understand that these CMC 5animal is something you hold under your hat, but in your previous post you hint that they are moves from the (yang)Taiji form ?
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby Trick on Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:35 pm

Bao wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:It was created in Taiwan and is practiced in Malaysia as well
It is a short form with 5 seperate techniques


Interesting. Many Tai chi teachers have their own "five movements" or five drills that works like a condensed version of their whole system.

Non of the (Taiji)teachers I've met so far have any specific five movement drills, but I see a lot of short forms on the Chinese tubes that I think are quite personal and resent creations, maybe a way to attract busy(not really have time to study) students?
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:25 pm

I first learnt the 5 flows in 1973 they are nothing new but part of the stepping drills
There are also a number of stepping drills with no hand movement
I find all the short forms to not deliver a lot
It is not that I keep the 5 animals a secret it is just that most people find the full cannon a little to much to practice
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby Franklin on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:33 am

I remember reading about CMC 5 animals in martial musing by smith

looked it up:

Liu’s Eight Basics come from an off-hand remark Laoshi made once to Mr. Liu. The “Five Animals” form was gleaned from some notes left by Laoshi and given to Mr. Liu by Mrs. Zheng. These simulate Hua To’s ancient Five Animals exercise:
Ward Off, Rollback, Press are Dragon.
Push is Tiger.
Fair Lady at Shuttles/Repulse Monkey is Monkey.
Cloud Hands is Bear.
Brush Knee (with adjustment step) is Bird.

Smith, Robert W.. Martial Musings: A Portrayal of Martial Arts in the 20th Century (Kindle Locations 5018-5022). Via Media Publishing. Kindle Edition.
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:56 am

Franklin wrote:I remember reading about CMC 5 animals in martial musing by smith

looked it up:

Liu’s Eight Basics come from an off-hand remark Laoshi made once to Mr. Liu. The “Five Animals” form was gleaned from some notes left by Laoshi and given to Mr. Liu by Mrs. Zheng. These simulate Hua To’s ancient Five Animals exercise:
Ward Off, Rollback, Press are Dragon.
Push is Tiger.
Fair Lady at Shuttles/Repulse Monkey is Monkey.
Cloud Hands is Bear.
Brush Knee (with adjustment step) is Bird.

Smith, Robert W.. Martial Musings: A Portrayal of Martial Arts in the 20th Century (Kindle Locations 5018-5022). Via Media Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Thanks for this. Is the "Martial musings" in the same class as "Masters and methods" ? I like his books even the Gilbey ones 8-)
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby Franklin on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:26 am

Trick wrote:
Franklin wrote:I remember reading about CMC 5 animals in martial musing by smith

looked it up:

Liu’s Eight Basics come from an off-hand remark Laoshi made once to Mr. Liu. The “Five Animals” form was gleaned from some notes left by Laoshi and given to Mr. Liu by Mrs. Zheng. These simulate Hua To’s ancient Five Animals exercise:
Ward Off, Rollback, Press are Dragon.
Push is Tiger.
Fair Lady at Shuttles/Repulse Monkey is Monkey.
Cloud Hands is Bear.
Brush Knee (with adjustment step) is Bird.

Smith, Robert W.. Martial Musings: A Portrayal of Martial Arts in the 20th Century (Kindle Locations 5018-5022). Via Media Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Thanks for this. Is the "Martial musings" in the same class as "Masters and methods" ? I like his books even the Gilbey ones 8-)



I liked Master and Methods the best
as I am more interested in Chinese Kung Fu
and while I first read it as a kid-
much later moved to Taiwan (not because of the book) but the info was more relevant

Martial Musing - has got a lot of stuff besides chinese kung fu
I was not too interested in that..
but also has some more CMC stuff


hope that helps...
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Re: what is special about cloud hands from purely a qigong view?

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:58 am

It was master lui the form came from but they are not the animals or moves in the form
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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