Extrasensory Situational Awareness

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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby zack on Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:47 pm

This is an interesting topic. My question is: When it comes to the negative situations, How would a person distinguish this skill from paranoia?
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby TrainingDummy on Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:14 am

I did the "godan" test for my shodan in Bujinkan.

You don't see, hear or feel anything beyond sensing the "killing" intent of the attacker.

It's a lot easier than it looks, and is very trainable. It's actually a LOT harder if someone doesn't throw their intent meaningfully at you, and just swings the sword at your head.
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby Dmitri on Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:24 am

TrainingDummy wrote:I did the "godan" test for my shodan in Bujinkan.

You don't see, hear or feel anything beyond sensing the "killing" intent of the attacker.

It's a lot easier than it looks, and is very trainable. It's actually a LOT harder if someone doesn't throw their intent meaningfully at you, and just swings the sword at your head.

Would be interesting to see if that skill/ability is reproducible (even by a master) while wearing some good noise-cancelling headphones... ;)
I'm not saying it wouldn't be reproducible, but, if it were possible that way, it would be a hell of a lot more impressive of a feat, in my book.
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Extrasensory Awareness or Simple Paranoia

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:46 am

zack wrote:This is an interesting topic. My question is: When it comes to the negative situations, How would a person distinguish this skill from paranoia?

zack:

Paranoia is consciously ever alert, always looking for potential threats, constantly scanning for hidden dangers, ever listening for the unidentifiable or out of place sound, generally assuming negative intentions from others and thus interpreting their behavior accordingly. That requires an incredible effort, and is totally unnecessary, since most of the time there probably isn't any real threat to find and respond to!

The type of mental awareness I referred to does none of that. It isn't driven by the imagination and expectation of impending doom, like paranoia, but only alerts you to negative intention that is actually present and only reacts with a survival response as needed. Since this type of situation hopefully rarely occurs, and you aren't always consciously looking for it to happen, the subconscious intuitive alert is something out of the ordinary that captures your conscious attention and awareness for greater immediate caution and potential immediate response.

That being said, subconscious mental awareness is merely just another tool for your defensive toolbox, and a tool that can and should be used in concert with well developed physical sense perceptions to maximize your defense ready status as part of a totally integrated mind and body defense system.
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:33 am

In the vane that we send out as well as recieve, it would seem to me that this ESA would play a large role in whether or not we are characterized as the victim maybe the message we send out is, "we are not the ones" or "I see you", maybe this is not only conveyed by body language alone, but is the other end of the spectrum of which Doc's theory is based.
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby Deadmonki on Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:04 am

:-X
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby whiskeytangofu on Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:27 am

Doc Stier wrote:Although the Godan test is interesting, the 'defender' knows exactly what is going to happen in advance, but doesn't when it is going to happen. I'm guessing that the close physical proximity of the 'attack' most likely allows normal physical senses to be employed in reacting to it. A sufficiently relaxed and focused 'defender' should thus be able to hear the air displaced by the movement of the shinai, as well as the movement of the sensei's body and clothing at such close quarters.

With all due respect to the acquired skills and reflexes of the 'defender' in that clip, I wouldn't say conclusively that something akin to what we're discussing here couldn't also be involved to some degree, but merely that this type of prefabricated scenario seems different to me than detecting the presence of an unknown ambush attacker who is yet to be seen or heard in any way. -shrug-


I would say the defender in this clip knows EXACTLY when it's going to happen. As part of the "wind up" for the attack, the attacker raises up a bit and audibly slides his back foot before initiating the downward movement of the attack. It's a blatant telegraph.
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby Cryptohominid on Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:07 pm

Dimitri said:

"I dunno Doc... I would venture a guess that modern psychology and related fields of study can probably explain very nicely every single instance of the "mysterious" phenomena you mention above as examples of something extraordinary... "

I have to agree here. The human mind is a fantastic parallel processor and much of what it does is carried on unconsciously. Just one example from this thread:

Deus Trismegistus said:

"I have to agree with Doc on the existence of this stuff. Just as an example a friend of mine tried to sneak up on me in the park across from our kung fu school when I was sitting on a bench taking a break from my workout. He was about 50 yards away directly behind me. I just turned around and smiled at him. When I turned around it was completely instinctive, I did not know he was there nor did I expect him to be there."

This is a little thing known as conformation bias. Fact is, we check our surroundings all the time—but if nothing is out of the ordinary or note worthy we simply don't notice or remember that we are doing it. When we do find something note worthy, we remember that, and often give the event a significance it doesn't really warrant. It's part of how our brains work and is tied in with the fact that we are hyper pattern recognizers (an evolutionarily valuable survival heuristic) and tend to ascribe agency even where there is none.

I'll be accused of many here of being dismissive at best, but I think looking into the fascinating progress science has made on this front is far more interesting and illuminating than any paranormal/prescientific explanation I have ever heard. Now, if anyone wants to prove me (and moreover, science) wrong on this front, I'm game. If someone can show ANY para-normal ability of this type under controlled conditions and give results better than what is expected by chance, not only will I shake your hand and admit I was wrong (and probably sign up for lessons ;) ) but the J-Ref will hand you over a million dollars.

Good luck!

*edited one word for clarity*
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:09 pm

Cryptohominid wrote:Dimitri said:

"I dunno Doc... I would venture a guess that modern psychology and related fields of study can probably explain very nicely every single instance of the "mysterious" phenomena you mention above as examples of something extraordinary... "

I have to agree here. The human mind is a fantastic parallel processor and much of what it does is carried on unconsciously. Just one example from this thread:

Nonetheless, it can reasonably be argued that many things exist or occur as experiential realities which can't be adequately measured by current scientific processes sufficiently to conclusively either validate or invalidate how and why they exist or occur as they do.

Additionally, it is an accepted fact in many spiritual traditions and schools of mental development that manifestations of consciousness are not caused by the actions of brain physiology, but merely use its functional capabilities as a medium of expression.

Thus, psychological and scientific explanations of such phenomenon can just as easily be viewed as descriptions of functional affects rather than as descriptions of originating causes.
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby wiesiek on Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:39 pm

hehe,Cryptohominid
as far as I know
modern psychology and related fields takes a lot of concepts and trainings/exercises directly from ancient eastern hermits... :)
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:56 pm

Cryptohominid wrote:Dimitri said:

"I dunno Doc... I would venture a guess that modern psychology and related fields of study can probably explain very nicely every single instance of the "mysterious" phenomena you mention above as examples of something extraordinary... "

I have to agree here. The human mind is a fantastic parallel processor and much of what it does is carried on unconsciously. Just one example from this thread:

Deus Trismegistus said:

"I have to agree with Doc on the existence of this stuff. Just as an example a friend of mine tried to sneak up on me in the park across from our kung fu school when I was sitting on a bench taking a break from my workout. He was about 50 yards away directly behind me. I just turned around and smiled at him. When I turned around it was completely instinctive, I did not know he was there nor did I expect him to be there."

This is a little thing known as cognitive bias. Fact is, we check our surroundings all the time—but if nothing is out of the ordinary or note worthy we simply don't notice or remember that we are doing it. When we do find something note worthy, we remember that, and often give the event a significance it doesn't really warrant. It's part of how our brains work and is tied in with the fact that we are hyper pattern recognizers (an evolutionarily valuable survival heuristic) and tend to ascribe agency even where there is none.

I'll be accused of many here of being dismissive at best, but I think looking into the fascinating progress science has made on this front is far more interesting and illuminating than any paranormal/prescientific explanation I have ever heard. Now, if anyone wants to prove me (and moreover, science) wrong on this front, I'm game. If someone can show ANY para-normal ability of this type under controlled conditions and give results better than what is expected by chance, not only will I shake your hand and admit I was wrong (and probably sign up for lessons ;) ) but the J-Ref will hand you over a million dollars.

Good luck!


Of course it is easy for someone else to dismiss another person's personal experience by whichever scientific criteria they want. However there is research showing not only that humans can effect the outcomes of random number generators by our consciousness but also the meditation of many individuals can effect the international crime rate. Further consciousness has been shown to effect directly physical object through torsion fields which are little known in the west but have been researched for over 30 years in Russia. So perhaps, just maybe, science will one day actually explain extrasensory awareness. However that can never happen until claims of such a thing existing are not dismissed out of hand ;D
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby Cryptohominid on Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:29 pm

Doc Stier wrote:Nonetheless, it can reasonably be argued that many things exist or occur as experiential realities which can't be adequately measured by current scientific processes sufficiently to conclusively either validate or invalidate how and why they exist or occur as they do.


I can't say that I agree with you there, the wording is a bit fuzzy. I'd love an example or two. Taken at face value though, I think you would have to concede that the 'gods of those gaps' grow smaller with each passing year.

wiesiek wrote:hehe,Cryptohominid
as far as I know
modern psychology and related fields takes a lot of concepts and trainings/exercises directly from ancient eastern hermits... :)


Look, I still 'meditate' and do 'qi gong', I just no longer expect or desire any supernatural or paranormal benefits from them. Relaxation, breath control, and learning how to get one's conscious mind out of the way of the subconscious when necessary are all sufficient and useful benefits for a martial artist. No one in science doubts the mind can affect the body, they doubt (because of a lack of any good evidence) that anything paranormal is achieved by any of these methods.

DeusTrismegistus wrote:However there is research showing not only that humans can effect the outcomes of random number generators by our consciousness but also the meditation of many individuals can effect the international crime rate. Further consciousness has been shown to effect directly physical object through torsion fields which are little known in the west but have been researched for over 30 years in Russia.


There was research claiming to show these things. It did not weather peer review, unfortunately. There are poor studies and experiments done all the time, some sincere and some deliberately (and often sophisticatedly) fudged to show support where there is none. I don't have time to go into all of it right now, and I doubt it would matter much, but suffice to say it's not enough to point to a couple of preliminary or just plain bad studies and say "look—Science proved it!" If you are really interested in this angle, try "Bad Science" by Dr. Ben Goldacre for a general audience overview of the topic. It's quite entertaining and informative.

DeusTrismegistus wrote:So perhaps, just maybe, science will one day actually explain extrasensory awareness. However that can never happen until claims of such a thing existing are not dismissed out of hand ;D


Honestly, I'm not dismissing it out of hand, I'm dismissing it for lack of evidence. I used to think exactly the same way you guys are about the subject and it was only after a ton of reading, practicing, and a stop and start multi year self education in science and reason/logic that I eventually gave up those beliefs. Hell, I might even still wish they were real (but not really, upon reflection) but as my grandpa said, "Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which fills up first." Bottom line here: Paranormal claims are by definition extraordinary and therefore the burden is on the claimant to provide (extraordinary) proofs, not on science to disprove them (it don't work that way folks).

I'm not going to go on and on trying to change the mind of believers here either, I know the futility of such an endeavor. You can't reason some one out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, and all that. I do hope that the odd person will be prodded to undertake their own process of discovery and understanding of what science is, what it knows, and how it knows. It changed my life for the better.

Cheers, guys! ;D
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby I-mon on Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:01 pm

One thing that I think it's useful to remember is that whatever else might be going on, a good look into the hard science can tell us a huge amount of what definitely, unquestionably IS going on. All of that nonverbal communication stuff, body language, facial expressions, subtle movements and tones of voice, individual and group behaviours, people and animals reacting to each other and our own insides reacting to all of this in constant continuous real-time...non-stop total-context "parallel processing" IS what is happening all of the time it is EXACTLY THIS that our right cerebral hemispheres have evolved to excel at. "Complexity" is a massive subject. In a single instant, one single "snapshot" of life, all of the details of the single visual scene in front of our eyes right now, for example, would take a lifetime to describe using the linear narrative powers of the left hemisphere, and yet we are able to receive and even understand the whole thing in context....this is (it seems) the whole point of our "cerebral asymmetry".

On top of this, it is of course possible that there are many more layers of communication and interaction taking place, but once again this doesn't mean that "science can't explain such things". It usually just means "Personally, I don't know enough science to explain such things".
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:09 pm

Cryptohominid wrote:Relaxation, breath control, and learning how to get one's conscious mind out of the way of the subconscious when necessary are all sufficient and useful benefits for a martial artist. No one in science doubts the mind can affect the body...."

I agree completely. And at the end of the day, that's all I'm really saying! -shrug-

I used to view this phenomenon just like you do now, but after long term study and practice of various mind control methods, and thereafter repeatedly experiencing the practical benefits of allowing this type of subconscious mental awareness to help me either get out of harm's way before it was too late or to help me respond in a faster and more effective manner, when there wasn't time to get out of harm's way, I eventually gave up those beliefs! ;)

Ultimately, from my personal point of view, validation of this phenomenon is found in the undeniable experiences of human beings in potentially life threatening or other emergency situations everywhere throughout human history, including people from all walks of life of both genders and from virtually every racial and ethnic group, not from some sterile, non-life threatening or non-emergency scientific lab experiment or research study. :-\
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Re: Extrasensory Situational Awareness

Postby I-mon on Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:19 pm

Doc Stier wrote:
Cryptohominid wrote:Relaxation, breath control, and learning how to get one's conscious mind out of the way of the subconscious when necessary are all sufficient and useful benefits for a martial artist. No one in science doubts the mind can affect the body...."

I agree completely. And at the end of the day, that's all I'm really saying! -shrug-

I used to view this phenomenon just like you do now, but after long term study and practice of various mind control methods, and thereafter repeatedly experiencing the practical benefits of allowing this type of subconscious mental awareness to help me either get out of harm's way before it was too late or to help me respond in a faster and more effective manner, when there wasn't time to get out of harm's way, I eventually gave up those beliefs! ;)

Ultimately, from my personal point of view, validation of this phenomenon is found in the undeniable experiences of human beings in potentially life threatening or other emergency situations everywhere throughout human history, including people from all walks of life of both genders and from virtually every racial and ethnic group, not from some sterile, non-life threatening or non-emergency scientific lab experiment or research study. :-\


For sure Doc, there is no substitute for experience. The science-talk is still just talk, after all. I think it's still valuable to bring it in though, since so often any talk of "ESP" "paranormal" "psychic" or "energetic" phenomena or whatever will be met with scornful "you don't really believe in that crap do you?", it can be quite handy to be able to say "well, there's actually a lot of very solid science behind some of this and, like everything else, it has to do with evolution and the brain...."
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