Illegal immigrant applied for job and was arrested

[qiphlow]

it really amazes me to see all the brotherly love that happens in these political threads.

[DeusTrismegistus]

What ever happened to "love thy neighbor?" (You know, the second-most-important commandment after "Love the Lord your God with all thy heart and all thy mind?")

Why is the Republican Party considered (by many) the "Christian Party" anyway?

(Serious questions here, not rhetorical.)

Are you Republicans here:

1. Republicans because you are Christian (i.e., religious responsibility - following the opinion of the church)
2. Republicans because you are Southerners (i.e., group mentality - they say "A," we say "A")
3. Republicans because you independently reached the same conclusions that the Republican Party did?

The same goes for Democrats, are you:

1. Democrats because you are atheist/agnostic (to go against the "Bible Belt" party)?
2. Democrats because you are Northerners (group mentality again)
3. Democrats because you independently reached the same conclusions that the Democrat Party did?

Lets say you love your neighbor. He is a cool guy. Then lets say your neighbor thinks your house is better than his, you got the fancy hot tub, pool, jacuzi, and dart board and a full service wet bar. You also have a nice garden and great water. Your neighbor's place sucks compared to yours. So your neighbor comes over one day and stays the night. You are cool with it cause you love your neighbor. Well a month goes by, your neighbor hasn't left, he is eating your food, drinking your booze, and enjoying all the things you worked hard to have. Now you can still love your neighbor, but do you think that you should let him stay in your house doing this forever?

This is why there is something called tough love. Sometimes you have to kick the lazy son out so he can learn some hard lessons, sometimes thats the only way people learn things. Sometimes you have to protect your own before you can help others.

Immigration laws exist for a reason and they always have. It is not our responsibility to protect people who come into our country by breaking our laws and harming us economically and in other ways. The money going into social security from illegals is only a fraction of the economic loss we face every year because of our lax policies and refusal to enforce the laws.


I am a registered republican but at 18 I hadn't really developed my own political views yet and was shooting in the dark so to speak. Over the course of college I spent a lot of time contemplating my own views and what I believed to be true and how that effected the world and my political opinions. That process continues now but is not as quickly evolving as it was. As I gain more knowledge my views are always growing and adapting. Right now I have considerable libertarian leanings mixed with some socialist leanings, kinda wierd but it works out.

[C-Hopkins]

It is not our responsibility to protect people who come into our country by breaking our laws and harming us economically and in other ways. The money going into social security from illegals is only a fraction of the economic loss we face every year because of our lax policies and refusal to enforce the laws.
[/quote]
Illigal Aliens provide MOST of the below minimum wage services which other groups in America rarely do.

They work in people's houses, many times in allmost paid Slavery conditions to provide an opportunity to their children to have a better life.I know because I've seen it.

Not singling out Deus, but in general my comment is that these people do what they do in order to provide a better life for their children and families.
Some of you may not repect or care about the fact that they are experiencing these situations, and may not understand what it means to exist outside of your own social and financial circle, and that is okay, it's just reality.

The other reality though is there's more going on in many of these people's lives than you understand because you've never walked in their shoes-

But you have walked in yours- and are totally inclined to your own opinion.
I don't object to your viewpoint, I do though acknowledge that there's more to this than you can possibly understand as in this culture we are born with tunnel vision with regards to our lives vs. the lives of the inhabitants of other cultures.

If you grew up in abject 3rd world pverty, you might sneak in Illigally as well-

That does not mitigate your perspectives,
I'm simply saying that there are two sides to the every story, and most times real understanding exists in the balancing of the two.

Illigal criminals are most certainly on the outs in my view.

We've sold a bill of goods to the world called "THe American Dream".

This is a very powerfull and magnetic draw to people who are experiencing terrible circumstances because we've become "The ideal"- the "archetype of freedom and prosperity"-

and everyone seeks the archetype in their lives. We allready have it, and it's kind of difficult to blame people in really fucked up circumstances for wanting it as well.

That's the commercial we've sold to the world. a chance for everyone, liberty and justice for all,streets made of gold etc... It's why people flooded in through Ellis Island-
But it was alot easier to get in for them.

[Darthwing Teorist]

Illigal criminals are most certainly on the outs in my view.

- I like this oxymoron.

[MikeC]

Illigal Aliens provide MOST of the below minimum wage services which other groups in America rarely do.

Hogwash. They aren't in just minimum wage jobs. A lot of them are in construction.

Or they're criminals dealing drugs and/or guns.

They work in people's houses, many times in allmost paid Slavery conditions to provide an opportunity to their children to have a better life.I know because I've seen it.

Horseshit. They make bank. They only seem poor b/c they send half of what they earn back home.

Not singling out Deus, but in general my comment is that these people do what they do in order to provide a better life for their children and families.
Some of you may not repect or care about the fact that they are experiencing these situations, and may not understand what it means to exist outside of your own social and financial circle, and that is okay, it's just reality.

And they do it without regard to what expense it places on the taxpayer's shoulders.

The other reality though is there's more going on in many of these people's lives than you understand because you've never walked in their shoes-

Speak for yourself. I've done most of the jobs that they do know. Construction, landscaping, restaurant, etc...
And I payed my taxes.

But you have walked in yours- and are totally inclined to your own opinion.
I don't object to your viewpoint, I do though acknowledge that there's more to this than you can possibly understand as in this culture we are born with tunnel vision with regards to our lives vs. the lives of the inhabitants of other cultures.

Are we supposed to pity these people now? Cmon....

If you grew up in abject 3rd world pverty, you might sneak in Illigally as well-

And get the shit beat outta ya by the locals, if you're lucky enough not get to caught by the local fuzz...

Mike

[C-Hopkins]

You really hate alot of people, don't you Mike.

[Mike Strong]

Mike C, - tellin' it like it is !


I've worked every one of those jobs you mentioned, - and I've worked alongside mahados on every one of those gigs, ...

... and yeah, they pay the rent, and then send 50% or more back home. Most of the guys I worked with helped their parents and saved enough to build a new house, and retire by the time they were 45, - ( that gives them 5 years of rest before they die of a heart attack).

Would I sneak across the border and work here illigally if I was in their shoes ?

Hell yes I would, - but that doesn't make it right.

All we are saying is:

1. SECURE THE BORDER !

2. Come here legally, sign the guest book, prove you don't have tuburculosous, - have a card from your local law enforcment that proves you are not a crook, and let the cops know what your address is while your working here, AND PAY TAXES; ( pretty much what I had to do when I worked in Taiwan - and I had no problem with it).

3. Bust companies that hire illegals.


Is that hate, - or just common sense ?

[DeusTrismegistus]

It is not our responsibility to protect people who come into our country by breaking our laws and harming us economically and in other ways. The money going into social security from illegals is only a fraction of the economic loss we face every year because of our lax policies and refusal to enforce the laws.

Illigal Aliens provide MOST of the below minimum wage services which other groups in America rarely do.

They work in people's houses, many times in allmost paid Slavery conditions to provide an opportunity to their children to have a better life.I know because I've seen it.

Not singling out Deus, but in general my comment is that these people do what they do in order to provide a better life for their children and families.
Some of you may not repect or care about the fact that they are experiencing these situations, and may not understand what it means to exist outside of your own social and financial circle, and that is okay, it's just reality.

The other reality though is there's more going on in many of these people's lives than you understand because you've never walked in their shoes-

But you have walked in yours- and are totally inclined to your own opinion.
I don't object to your viewpoint, I do though acknowledge that there's more to this than you can possibly understand as in this culture we are born with tunnel vision with regards to our lives vs. the lives of the inhabitants of other cultures.

If you grew up in abject 3rd world pverty, you might sneak in Illigally as well-

That does not mitigate your perspectives,
I'm simply saying that there are two sides to the every story, and most times real understanding exists in the balancing of the two.

Illigal criminals are most certainly on the outs in my view.[/quote]

There shouldn't be "below minimum wage services", since minimum wage is supposed to be the minimum.

I work with a lot of mexican immigrants. Some are legal and I am sure some aren't. We are a commercial construction company and we hire all new inexperienced workers in at the same rate regardless of race. I know some companies that hire illegals for below market wages in the industry. The jobs illegal immigrants do at below market wages would still be there at market wage if they were legal immigrants.

I know that many illegals are only trying to better themselves and better their position and health and opportunity in life. They cannot be blamed for doing what they think is best. However we have legal methods of allowing people to move into the country to do that. By ignoring our own laws and allowing the illegals to come into the country without repercusions we cannot allow as many legal immigrants. We directly take opportunity from people who are law abiding and willing to live within the systems laws and constraints and give that opportunity to those who disregard the laws and circumvent the established procedure. We harm our own economy by reducing the living wage and negatively impacting unemployement rates as more legal american citizens that are wanting to work are being forced out by unfair wage competition by illegal immigrants. Then because we allow the illegals to live and work here we create situations where unfair employers can take advantage of them and have them work in unsafe and unsanitary conditions. They have no legal recourse because they are illegal.

So yea. Here is how it is. It sucks that people have to live in places with horrible conditions, have to worry about their families starving, have to worry about getting good health care, and worry about living conditions in general. We got laws and policies governing immigration, and it definitely sucks for the person who is hoping to come into this country for a better life and he gets turned away, or the person who comes here for opportunity and gets deported. But quite frankly, its not our problem what conditions are like in other countries, we have no obligations to take anyone who wants to come here, we can't allow that for the interest of our own countries physical and economic health. We have to enforce our immigration laws as they exist, or change them to reflect what we actually want to enforce. It might sound selfish to some people but you have to watchout for yourself first. You can't help someone if you need help yourself. If we continue to allow virtually free immigration in our country, especially now as the economy is slipping and may take a long hard down turn effecting employement rates in a bad way, then it won't be long before the country as a whole is worse off except for the few people who take advantage of the poor and sick.

[MikeC]

Well said Deus

[C-Hopkins]

Agreed. Well said. I don't disagree.

Gotta help yourself first.

Maybe once we get our shit straightened out, we'll be in a better position to work out the sitauation-
We should have compassion for others.
We're shit fucked as it is, and i believe we need a whole new set of eyes to look at this and find a way that actually works, because the current model clearly isn't cutting it.

[Steve James]

This is another one of those "position statements" rather than an argument. Illegal aliens are simply people who live here without papers. Ok, if they had papers, they'd be legal. Why not just give them papers? That wouldn't be illegal, but many wouldn't like it. Why not? Well, first come the questions: "do we want more immigrants?" "do we need immigrants?" "can we afford more?." Then, the answers: "they cause crime" "they raise prices and lower wages" "they drain our resources." And, round and round we go.

Fact is, aliens who come here legally will still work for less than citizens, unless they have special skills. The reason they can find work at all isn't because they're here, it's because they wait on streetcorners for guys in trucks to pick the men up. And, the women often work in factories, same as they might in China. Walmart hires them, and doesn't want the govt to interfere because they make money. Yep, they work in construction --especially in "right to work" states, where capitalism is supposed to have freer reign. To work on a union job, you have to have papers (or permits).

Believe me, I look outside my window and see guys who can't speak English working on buildings. I was in construction. I know that there are lots of guys who can do that work, or be trained to, just as well. I've heard some employer's say that 'Americans don't want the jobs.' Some other employers, otoh, send their jobs overseas. So, when it comes to work, it's hard for me to say who's to blame. If there were nothing to do here, and no one to hire them, they wouldn't come. Then again, employers here would send the jobs there. Ever notice how many things say "Made in Mexico"?

When it comes to crime, though, I take a harder line. I'd go as far as installing a tracking tag up a rapist or murderer's butt --regardless what PETA might say. But, I wouldn't allow violent criminals to stay. No amnesty for them. They give up their privileges. When it comes to their kids who are born here, I take a soft line. They're children born here, and if we can't keep 'em out, they're gonna be ours --whether we want them or not.

I'm all for strict borders, but I think building a fence is a waste of my tax money and time. Shucks, it might be cheaper to make Mexico a state. Aw, don't say it. We did it to Texas and Hawaii Ok, just a thought.

[Buddy]

"Illegal aliens are simply people who live here without papers. Ok, if they had papers, they'd be legal. Why not just give them papers? That wouldn't be illegal, but many wouldn't like it. Why not? Well, first come the questions: "do we want more immigrants?" "do we need immigrants?" "can we afford more?." Then, the answers: "they cause crime" "they raise prices and lower wages" "they drain our resources." And, round and round we go."

Why not just have open borders? There's a little more to it than you mention. How about everyone standing in line to get in legally? How about folks coming in for asylum? How about they broke the law by coming here illegally? Why reward their crime?
I still say send employers who hire them to jail, fine them and their companies. Dry up the work and the vast majority of illegals go home. The LP and I part company on this one.

[Steve James]

Why not have open borders?

Ya mean like in Europe? I mean, why have a border with Canada at all? Ay? Okay, I understand that there'll always be borders, whether they're monitored or not. You could then argue that there will always be illegal border crossers.

There's nothing wrong with coming here legally; it's the right thing to do. I was just saying that it would be possible to make illegals legal with a stroke of the pen (-I don't support that idea, but it's possible). The question is why we won't do that.

So, how do we weed out all illegals, a national identity card? an electronic registry of citizens and legal residents. Then we do a sweep. That, imo, is a big part of the problem --even if we catch em and kick em out, they just come back. I say, give them a reason to go back home and stay. I agree with you about punishing those who hire them, though.

[edededed]

What ever happened to "love thy neighbor?" (You know, the second-most-important commandment after "Love the Lord your God with all thy heart and all thy mind?")

Well, whatever happened to all the other ones?
Christianity in its pure form is a Utopian method which IMO is only possible to truly practice within the confines of a monastery or a similar environment.
There are very, very few Christians who actually practically follow exactly what Christ taught. The rest are just enjoying the "social circle" thing, not that there's anything wrong with that.

The other ones are of course important as well, but secondary (or tertiary) to the above two commandments, as Jesus said.

But right, there are very, very few Christians who actually practice what they teach. Jesus also mentioned that it is about as hard for a rich person to go to heaven as it is for a camel to go through a needle's eye... Quite clearly, it is impossible for a camel to go through a needle's eye.

[edededed]

Lets say you love your neighbor. He is a cool guy. Then lets say your neighbor thinks your house is better than his, you got the fancy hot tub, pool, jacuzi, and dart board and a full service wet bar. You also have a nice garden and great water. Your neighbor's place sucks compared to yours. So your neighbor comes over one day and stays the night. You are cool with it cause you love your neighbor. Well a month goes by, your neighbor hasn't left, he is eating your food, drinking your booze, and enjoying all the things you worked hard to have. Now you can still love your neighbor, but do you think that you should let him stay in your house doing this forever?

This is why there is something called tough love. Sometimes you have to kick the lazy son out so he can learn some hard lessons, sometimes thats the only way people learn things. Sometimes you have to protect your own before you can help others.

Immigration laws exist for a reason and they always have. It is not our responsibility to protect people who come into our country by breaking our laws and harming us economically and in other ways. The money going into social security from illegals is only a fraction of the economic loss we face every year because of our lax policies and refusal to enforce the laws.


I am a registered republican but at 18 I hadn't really developed my own political views yet and was shooting in the dark so to speak. Over the course of college I spent a lot of time contemplating my own views and what I believed to be true and how that effected the world and my political opinions. That process continues now but is not as quickly evolving as it was. As I gain more knowledge my views are always growing and adapting. Right now I have considerable libertarian leanings mixed with some socialist leanings, kinda wierd but it works out.

Of course, what you are saying is reasonable - many normal human beings think this way... but religion (usually) aims to surpass normal human beings, reach a higher level, so to speak.

If someone slaps your cheek, it is NOT normal for you to give him your other cheek to slap.
If someone commits a heinous crime to you, it is NOT normal for you to forgive him.

Nevertheless, this is what Christianity teaches, but for some reason so-called Christians seem more preoccupied with protecting their wealth (see the camel post above), protecting the world from gays and abortion, and so on. Strangely, although very little Christianity seems extant at all, all president hopefuls must at least appear to be good Christians (by being churchgoers) to even be considered.