Shooting in Florida

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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Steve James on Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:19 pm

Based on this case, you can conclude that in Florida if you think you see some part of a weapon in the vehicle of someone who's bothering you, it is acceptable to kill anyone who gets out of that vehicle. Nothing else is required.


It's not the law. It's the jury, who was comprised of 12 Americans. All it took was one of them to believe Dunn's story; and the basis of his story was that he feared for his life. Of course, if he wasn't fearful, he wouldn't be armed. Otoh, we can also say that everyone has fears. Laws are often created to respond to those fears.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby gzregorz on Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:52 am

Michael wrote:Dunn's story is laughable. If you applied it to any other scenario it would be hysterical. To me, it does look like Dunn was just waiting for a provocation. Who knows if the statements from Hendrix are true, but they also fit that mentality.


Good point Michael, in the part of the Daily show that's not in the clip when Dunn's describing the gas station JS then says, "You mean it's like every gas station everywhere?"

Based on this case, you can conclude that in Florida if you think you see some part of a weapon in the vehicle of someone who's bothering you, it is acceptable to kill anyone who gets out of that vehicle. Nothing else is required. As I said before, it appears we can now behave the same as the worst of the police and other criminals do and the court or some jury will rationalize it as self defense. This is backwards.


Good point, I never thought about the connection but yes it seems that citizens are believing that they are cops and soon as someone doesn't comply with their commands they can escalate the use of force.

People all over net are complaining about this case where Austin police arrested a lady jogging with ear buds, because of her ear buds she didn't hear them, so they arrested her saying she's being charged with resisting arrest.

Image

http://www.myfoxaustin.com/story/247823 ... jaywalking

Although not related it's obvious the police overreacted and citizens seems are doing the same.

It's disturbing that Dunn didn't actually get charged for the murder but for shooting at the other teens. I can't say I'm surprised, after Zim I figured this case could turn out the same but obviously Dunn wasn't as skilled as Zim in playing the system. Zim would have called 911 before and after the shooting, in fact Zim probably called 911 to tell the world what he thought about the case.

It'll be interesting to see how the movie theatre shooting ruling goes in comparison since the victim doesn't have the same stereotypes attached to him. Although I think we all know the answer to that.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Michael on Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:14 am

gzregorz wrote:Good point, I never thought about the connection but yes it seems that citizens are believing that they are cops and soon as someone doesn't comply with their commands they can escalate the use of force.

People all over net are complaining about this case where Austin police arrested a lady jogging with ear buds, because of her ear buds she didn't hear them, so they arrested her saying she's being charged with resisting arrest.

Since 2006 I've been occasionally visiting Austin and whenever I pick up hitchikers, fellers who've been all over the USA, they tell me that Austin is the worst for police, whom they describe as completely intolerant of street entertainers and people of their kind.
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I've been expecting any day since 9/11 for them to pass a new law that makes being arrested itself a criminal offense. That way, no matter the reason for the arrest, you're still in violation. Perhaps even without the actual law on the books, lol, the police often act as if their suspicion of you is the same as your being guilty, and that being guilty takes away your rights, and so you must be put into compliance, right frakking now.

You can find multiple serious cases every day in the USA of police completely over-reacting to harmless situations, and it's mainly because they're being trained to be afraid of everyone. I saw this myself once when pulled over for the most minor traffic thing that didn't even get a ticket or written warning. The older cop was relaxed and saw no potential threat and the young cop was acting like he had been watching too many police docu-dramas, with his gun drawn, held up to his face in two hands like some parody skit of a stupid cop, sliding with his back along the side of my motor home, cat-like reflexes ready for the faintest indication of danger, at the ready to initiate his attack mode.

Here's a recent example of an extreme over-reaction. Young black male gets into a traffic accident, has to climb out the back of his crashed vehicle, knocks on door of woman home alone, who panics and calls cops. Cops come to 911 call, young black man who is unarmed sees them and runs toward them, probably for help or to report the accident, one officer immediately tasers him, while the other empties his clip and kills him. I guess we should be happy they're so thorough and that part of their training was successful.

Charlotte police kill ex-FAMU player who may have been running to them for help

Here is a one-hour talk from a woman named Michelle Alexander, who wrote The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby gzregorz on Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:46 am

Michael, I think you'll find this interesting. It's the write from the Rise of the Warrior Cop.

I've seen this writer around on a few TV shows but this is the most detailed interview I've seen and the most logical. In it he goes into the history of SWAT and what the cities and local governments gain from war on drugs.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfOuYNk8tFk

Obviously the police do have a dangerous job but the more they switch to a battlefield mentality the more that mentality is carrying over to the public. I believe there are a lot of good LEOs out there and in fact I train with a lot of them but I also believe there are better ways they can handle things that build a better relationship with the community they are sworn to protect.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Steve James on Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:47 pm

Obviously the police do have a dangerous job but the more they switch to a battlefield mentality the more that mentality is carrying over to the public.


I understand the points ya'll make, but I don't think incidents like the ones with Zimmerman or Dunn are symptomatic of anything that is happening now because of the police (or the gov't). Zimmerman was policing his neighborhood in the tradition of the 19th and 20th century night riders. He's an illustration of the desire to make sure that people were "in their proper place."

Anyway, for me, the difference is still that people so readily justify killing others, regardless of whether they started the altercation or not.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Michael on Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:22 pm

Specifically with Z and Dunn, I also don't think it's part of a trend from police so much. However, I do see a trend in my lifetime with police specifically and the legal system in general that is more and more intolerant, but not sure if this matches with any larger time curves. This intolerance is evidenced in the massively exploding prison population of 2.4 million and approx. 4 million others who are currently on parole or probation, as well as the many millions of others who have prior convictions and, as Michelle Alexander describes them, are in a lower caste that is equivalent to Jim Crow style disenfranchisement.

However, the specific training police have received since the 80's that goes along with "the war on drugs" and now "the global war on terror", and also including the zero tolerance policies and pain compliance training for police to use on anyone non-threatening who does not immediately obey, is a new trend post WW2, with added acceleration since 9/11. Again, I'm not sure if there was a time in the USA when you could protest peacefully, but it seems that this freedom reached its height during the height of economic prosperity from post WW2 - early 1970's, as evidenced by the Vietnam War and Civil Rights protests, which brought about a variety of covert establishment responses, such as COINTELPRO and MKULTRA, that were not apparent to most protesters at that time, meaning the freedom didn't really exist then either.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby yeniseri on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:45 pm

Let it be said that the thugs are the ones with guns!
How could Dunn even claim he stood his ground when it was he who got out of his car into the car with the loud music and fired shots at a fleeing vehicle.
He was not at his home and all he had to do was call police about the loud music and go elsewhere. He had that choice ???
He left the scene without reporting the incident.

Dunn is a thug based on his behavior! That is the problem I see with THOSE PEOPLE (yeh, they know who they are!). They chase their victims while pretending they were standing their ground and the law agrees with them! Law enforcement necessitates a psychological test as to aptitude and mentall wellness but the people who claim it is their right to a gun get away with their deeds!
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Michael on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:19 pm

gzregorz wrote:Michael, I think you'll find this interesting. It's the write from the Rise of the Warrior Cop.

I've seen this writer around on a few TV shows but this is the most detailed interview I've seen and the most logical. In it he goes into the history of SWAT and what the cities and local governments gain from war on drugs.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfOuYNk8tFk

Thanks for the link, I'll check that out.
Obviously the police do have a dangerous job but the more they switch to a battlefield mentality the more that mentality is carrying over to the public. I believe there are a lot of good LEOs out there and in fact I train with a lot of them but I also believe there are better ways they can handle things that build a better relationship with the community they are sworn to protect.

In Nineteen Eighty-four, Orwell categorized the population of society into three groups, so I will use that to describe law enforcement officers.

EVIL: The psychopath, sociopath, and sadist cops who prey on the public. These are the ones who beat harmless homeless people to death for no lawful reason, such as Kelly Thomas. The clever and cunning amongst these rise to the manager ranks and propagate the internal culture of protecting their fellow psychopaths. This is 3% of the population and Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-four divided the population accordingly, giving the name of "Inner Party" to the group I define as evil. O'Brien was the exemplary member of this group and he used electrocution to torture Winston into submission similar to how street cops use cattle prods, called tasers, to achieve "pain compliance"from their victims.

NORMAL: Someone who just goes along to get along. They might follow some code or set of rules, as many law enforcement officers clearly do, but they have multiple standards for how to apply those rules, and they do not dare apply the rules to people who might be able to harm them, such as their peers, their superiors, or powerful groups in the public, including criminal gangs. Maybe this is wise or pragmatic, whatever, but they are not good. Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-four divided the population accordingly and gave the name of "Proletariat" to the group I define as normal. He said they were about 80-85% of the general population. These are the cops who are easily trained to employ sadistic "pain compliance", and who offer no moral or ideological resistance to the training that inspires them to taser pregnant women who sass them at traffic stops.

GOOD: A person who actively fights what they consider to be evil. This is 3% of the general population.
With very few exceptions, law enforcement officers who apply the rule of law to their fellow officers are *immediately*, IMMEDIATELY ostracized by their peers and their managers. Within a day or two, there is a meeting of their peers, arranged by their superiors, to declare they will not provide the "bad egg" or "rat" with backup when they need it. Next, the "rats" are informed in various ways that their career will not advance and they will receive the most undesirable assignments, and they're given the hint to go elsewhere. See Serpico as well as others I've posted about on RSF over the years who reported infractions of their peers to their superiors. The percentage of good cops is less than the percentage in the general population because the good ones leave when they see the essence of their institution does not support internal application of the rule of law.

Since I'm using Orwell as a reference, let me finish explaining the demographic. The main character of Nineteen Eighty-four was a member of the Outer Party, which comprises about 15% of the total population. Half of that, about 7%, are managers and bureaucrats, like Winston. The other half of that segment of society, about 7%, are enforcers: cops, military, secret police, etc.

I have met a lot of normal LEO's who go by the rule of law when they're dealing with the public, but they are not "good". They are either brainwashed blind to the corruption they swim in or they know better than to buck the system. They do what they can in their sphere of influence on the street that keeps law and order and, if NOT pressured, they usually tell the truth on the witness stand. But they are not "good" and it's very easy for them to be persuaded that someone is a "bad guy" according to the ruleset they believe in, and then they do not treat him with much fairness or kindness.

Good people constantly examine the premise of their beliefs that establishes the rules or morality of how they treat others, whereas normal people accept an arbitrary premise and starting point for their morality to click into gear, such as the cops in the following clip. Those police ideologically accepted a premise that serving an immediate-entry warrant on someone's home was justified, when their objective could have been completed using much simpler and safer means for all involved. Accepting a flawed premise, they gathered in full battle gear outside the home of a family and emptied their clips, yahoo buckaroo style, into a man who would not have been a threat had the police not created the danger in the first place. These are normal cops, not evil ones, but it will take a long time for some of the normal ones to recognize the mistake they made, and they will never do anything about it, for they will simultaneously realize the consequences inherent in their awareness.



Jose Guerena SWAT Raid Video From Helmet Cam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak
length 0:54

Was the cop who shot Oscar Grant evil, normal, or good? Did he suddenly snap one day or should his peers and/or superiors have intervened before Grant's execution? We know what would happen to any of his peers if they had reported their suspicions because it happens the same way every time. There was a famous case in Dallas quite similar and the cop who reported in writing years before a fatal altercation was: ostracized, the subject of a meeting to declare he would receive no backup, and he quickly took the hint to leave. Who held that meeting, good cops? Who voted in that meaning to provide no backup, good cops?
Last edited by Michael on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:33 am

Interesting, the man who convinced so many that Treyvon was a thug and is a known racist.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2013/08 ... hite-voice
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:42 am

It's odd that the prosecution didn't use Dunn's phone calls from prison as evidence.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4a4q4FYS5I
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Michael on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:53 pm

I agree with the judge about not allowing that evidence since it came after the incident. I think the prosecution would need to make a link from Dunn prior to the killing and then connect it to what he said later as re-emphasis. I can't imagine this would have been very difficult to accomplish, top find a trend in Dunn's previous attitude similar to what he said in jail, but apparently the prosecution didn't? Not sure.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Michael on Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:57 pm

grzegorz wrote:Interesting, the man who convinced so many that Treyvon was a thug and is a known racist.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2013/08 ... hite-voice

I never understood how you could call Martin a thug after he'd been killed. Unless you can prove it really well, and I never heard anything solid, it was all just typical teenage boy stuff that they cited against him.

I was surprised to hear the thug comment from some prominent black media figures, too. I wouldn't even go there when the kid is dead.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby grzegorz on Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:32 pm

South Park just did an episode on the Zimmerman trial.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Bill on Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:11 am

Michael wrote:I never understood how you could call Martin a thug after he'd been killed. Unless you can prove it really well, and I never heard anything solid, it was all just typical teenage boy stuff that they cited against him.


Perhaps because he beat Zimmerman to the ground, without adequate provocation. A neighborhood watch person questioning you gives you no reason to assault them.
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Re: Shooting in Florida

Postby Michael on Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:13 am

I didn't mean to restart the old debate.
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