The Company He Keeps

[Michael]

Walter, not trying to draw you into something you're not interested in repeating, but I never knew or forgot your position on guns. I'm curious.

[Steve James]

Mike U., how about this. Why don't you carry a gun? Is it because you absolutely can't get one? or is it because you're afraid of the penalty for having or using it? I ask because there's probably a reason those scary guys only have knives. If they didn't have knives, they'd just gang up on you with sticks. Yes, having a gun will allow you to defend yourself. If you think that your life is in danger, then get one. Either way, people will always either gang up or overpower others.

Personally, I like guns and shooting and think everyone should have the right to have one in their home --especially for catastrophes. However, I think that carrying them for self defense is just too much trouble and (moral) responsibility.

[Buddy]

"We all know my view of the second amendment, despite the boneheaded decision handed down by the nine "wise persons" in DC."

Right, because Land Court lawyers are so much better equipped to deal with Constitutional law than Supreme Court justices.

[MikeC]

It boggles my mind. The SC just affirmed that we have more INDIVIDUAL rights than we had yesterday. I can't understand why this is a bad thing?

[zenshiite]

The irony is, and I'm not sure some of you cats are getting it either on the right or left, but there's this tension between what the right and left say and would do in power and it's no good for any of us. On the one hand you've got the right saying we can own guns, but they are more than willing to take away other freedoms and rights from us to suit their purposes. While the left would leave us without the ability to combat government oppression. I just wonder, at what point will the left make it possible for the right to impose tyranny upon us all, or at what point will the right make it possible for the left to impose tyranny? And at one point will most Americans wake up to the fact that NEITHER party is on our side? Neither party is doing what is in OUR best interest. At what point do we realize that these guys are selling our lives and our world to corporations to keep themselves in positions of influence and power and to hell with the rest of us.

I personally don't see how the second amendment can't be read to mean individual ownership of guns, which gives people the capability of forming militias. I'm pretty sure they didn't have the local militia hall in those days where everyone kept their rifles until such time as they needed to defend their homes and towns and states.

[Michael]

Personally, I like guns and shooting and think everyone should have the right to have one in their home --especially for catastrophes. However, I think that carrying them for self defense is just too much trouble and (moral) responsibility.

Sounds good to me, but I also have no problem with people carrying guns if they want to, although it's not my cup of tea. Criminals are the minority and law-abiding citizens will carry guns according to the threat of crime and they vastly outnumber the criminals. Off the top of my head, I've heard of 20% reduction in crime with concealed carry permits.

[Steve James]

Off the top of my head, I've heard of 20% reduction in crime with concealed carry permits.

You can get a concealed carry permit in NYC. You can also carry one illegally. People do it all the time.

I think you're suggesting that the criminals will use whatever weapons are available, including guns, in order to intimidate and steal. Not true.

I don't have to suggest it. What weapons don't criminals use? In fact, they usually steal weapons from honest people or buy them with money they've stolen. The argument that gun ownership equals lower crime is repeated often. But, if you look at TX, FL and LA, states with loose gun control, they all have higher crime rates. EVEN if everyone is allowed to carry, many people won't or don't.

Criminals look for the easy prey and are always vastly out-numbered by law-abiding citizens.

Yeah, so you'd think that we'd just beat them down, collectively. That happens in some cultures, but not in ours. If criminals knew that everyone would stick up for each other, that'd be the best deterrent there could be. These are all "what ifs" anyway. There's never been a time in this country where "everyone" carried a pistol. Where it did happen, out west and parts of the south, it was because they were afraid of other people, not just criminals.

Again, tell me why three professional burglars in Dallas, TX quickly slinked away from a small, 13 year old boy and yet a single pickpocket in Guangzhou half my size will give me murderous looks when I catch him trying to steal my wallet or someone else's.

This is the fallacy of generalizing from a specific incident. I'll answer. But, I could ask "why did a Japanese kid get shot after he knocked on a guy's door in TX?" or "why did the guy in TX 'accidentally' shoot his friend in the head?'" The answer to your question is much easier, "because he had a gun."

[MikeC]

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You can get a concealed carry permit in NYC. You can also carry one illegally. People do it all the time.

Really? I have a NY State CCP, but for some magical reason it's not good in NYC. You can theoretically get one in NYC, but it's hard. And with that asshole czar Bloomberg in charge of things it probably won't get any easier...

Sad, because I think alot of people could benefit from it.

Mike

[Steve James]

You can theoretically get one in NYC, but it's hard.

Like I said, you can get a ccp in nyc. It's not easy, no. They deliberately make it a pain in the ass and even then there are restrictions. But, as you say, even where you live, it is possible to get one. It's just easier; and, no, it isn't valid in lots of municipalities. But, as you said in another thread, each locality should be able to make up its own rules. And, for whatever reason, gun crimes have gone down in NYC in the last 5-10 years.

[MikeC]

You can theoretically get one in NYC, but it's hard.

Like I said, you can get a ccp in nyc. It's not easy, no. They deliberately make it a pain in the ass and even then there are restrictions. But, as you say, even where you live, it is possible to get one. It's just easier; and, no, it isn't valid in lots of municipalities. But, as you said in another thread, each locality should be able to make up its own rules. And, for whatever reason, gun crimes have gone down in NYC in the last 5-10 years.

Right. But in terms of violent crime, and I don't know the numbers offhand, but everytime I watch the NYC news from my home I see someone in one of the 5 borroughs get attacked, killed, raped, robbed, whatever. Now, I see alot of these particular crimes are committed with knives, but that could be another point of discussion. I just sigh to myself everytime I see this on the news and try and think what more could these people do to protect themselves. Relying on the police to protect you is the ongoing joke of the century...

And as far as the NYC permit goes, it's not only hard, it's damn near impossible!

Mike

[Steve James]

everytime I watch the NYC news from my home

Right.

[meeks]

Code: Select all

After living in China a while and seeing how normal, everyday, hard-working and good people are afraid of not only the hordes of professional thieves here, but also of their government, I fully support the 2nd amendment and encourage responsible gun ownership. Even when I was in the Marines, I didn't want to own a gun, but that has changed.

Mike, one thing you should take into consideration about China is how it's been affected by communist rule - after the revolution, if they said anything openly against the govt they'd be killed. 40 years later you have an apathetic nation that looks for excuses not to help each other out "for fear of retaliation". Come on, you walk down the street in China and see someone get injured on the sidewalk and people will walk around rather than help because "it could be a trap" to extort money out of you.

On top of that, the most common thieves/pickpockets are the guys from xin jiang province, which is a chinese minority. Because of their minority status they are given a "lifetime get out of jail free" card...they can't be arrested unless it's for a major offense like a murder. So they can get detained for about an hour for pickpocketing then they're let go (if detained at all). Because they know their 'freedom' from the rules most Han Chinese face they take advantage of this and often resort to crime with minor detentions simply being the cost of doing business.

So what I'm saying is, it's not the lack of guns that make people in China 'run' by the pickpockets - it's because people there simply turn a blind eye to each other.

[Michael]

Dave, I know you're right about that, so my point would be in a situation where the govt/police have failed to make law and order the norm, having a gun is a way to protect yourself.