The recent mass shooting and associated topics

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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby Steve James on Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:54 am

Gun grabbers don't want law abiding people to be able to defend themselves.


Bull shite. Everyone who's introduced legislation has refuted that claim. That's why it's just a talking point. "Gun grabbers" ;)

They know what their end goal is and that our lives and welfare mean nothing to them.


Got that backwards. "Our" lives and children and welfare mean everything to "us."
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby qiphlow on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:25 pm

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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby yieldingxxx on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:41 pm

Hey Chris Rock may be on to something here. It's like buying a printer these days. You can get an "office quality" top of the line printer for a reasonable price, but the damn 4 color cartridges cost a fortune. My own 4-in-1 printer cartridges come to about $125.00, but some are even more than that.

Makes some 'self-ration' I bet. Sort of like Romney's 'self-deport' when the job creators stop creating jobs! :D

Regarding gun regulation, I'm just wondering what all these NRA types think they're gonna do if they "feel" they "need" to 'take up arms" against our (I assume) tyrannical government? Don't folks understand that our own military would actually kill everyone in sight, following orders to protect society at large? It's all fantasy. Perhaps in a post apocalyptic world, it would be handy to have a supply of firearms and such, but then I'd think one would have even bigger problems at that point. Like eating. :o
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby gzregorz on Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:57 pm

Michael wrote:People who want to ban guns or make them nearly impossible to obtain, or make the penalties for their illegal possession so excessive that it makes people afraid to go near them, like Graham, Bailewen, and Greg.


It looks like the haze is in your lungs Michael. I've never said we should ban guns although when I lived abroad I had no issue with the ban in other countries.

In fact I've actually been on both sides of a gun so everything you discuss is nothing new to me. But you should read what I'm saying instead of just giving out your usual knee jerk reaction.

And you wonder why I enjoy busting your balls.

The fact is in countries with strict gun laws they are a lot less gun deaths and that's a fact I can't ignore. But I suppose you would want us to, unfortunately I have a brain. In fact Australia hasn't had any shooting sprees since changing their laws over 15 years ago.
Last edited by gzregorz on Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby Finny on Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:38 pm

gimpster wrote:
Spot on Michael.

Gun grabbers don't want law abiding people to be able to defend themselves. They go out of their way to pooh pooh claims that one can use a gun for self-defense. They are also the first people to fight laws like Three Strikes and protect murderers like Tookie Williams, whom they turned into a celebrity until we killed his worthless ass.

When states like Florida and Arizona proposed new CCW laws that made it easy for ordinary citizens to carry, the Dems were screaming that it would lead to criminals becoming even more deadly and more shootouts. It didn't happen. The bottom line is: Liberals are just deeply offended that people are allowed to defend themselves and have a say in their own livelihood.

This is why gun owners are so vociferous in fighting them.



I'd be in the same ("gun-grabbing" if that's what "pro gun restriction" is) camp. I want everyone who needs to - to be able to defend themselves. I would never argue that you CAN'T use a gun for self defense.

But I don't think, in a society (like mine, for ex) where firearms aren't freely available - that one needs a gun to defend themselves. Why would i need a gun? I've never been threatened with a gun, seen anyone threatened with a gun, seen/heard/been near anyone shot - I've never seen a gun outside of a few specific circumstances (going to a shooting range, and a friend who i used to know who had a few guns on his rural property).

As Greg said above - it's patently obvious that in countries where firearms are not freely available to the public, fewer people are shot. It's that simple - you can emote all you like and do your best to craft an image of a lobby group intent on seizing your firearms (presumably because they're just so freakin' awesome that the 'gun grabbers' want them for themselves!!) - but ultimately, a community without firearms is safer.

With others, I dismiss the whole 'your government has tricked you, and now has you under it's thumb!!' threat as absurd - anyone who thinks their stockpile of AR-15s and AKs is going to 'protect' them from their OWN government (and by extension military, presumably), is warped on several levels.

And a bit rough on Steve BTW Mick - just because he disagrees (politely as always) with your conclusions - no need for that, i thought.
Last edited by Finny on Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby Michael on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:34 am

gzregorz wrote:
Michael wrote:People who want to ban guns or make them nearly impossible to obtain, or make the penalties for their illegal possession so excessive that it makes people afraid to go near them, like Graham, Bailewen, and Greg.


It looks like the haze is in your lungs Michael. I've never said we should ban guns although when I lived abroad I had no issue with the ban in other countries.

At this point, I have to question what you are reading. In your own quote I do not claim you want to ban guns, but want high penalties for illegal possession.

The fact is in countries with strict gun laws they are a lot less gun deaths and that's a fact I can't ignore. But I suppose you would want us to, unfortunately I have a brain. In fact Australia hasn't had any shooting sprees since changing their laws over 15 years ago.

I think you should look at overall violent crime statistics in relation to availability for the general public to get guns for self defense. You posted the article that showed the crime rate had gone up in Aus and UK, but considering your limited reading skills and alzheimers, you probably weren't able to remember its content or who posted it.

It's good there have been no shooting sprees in Australia, nobody wants that, but is preventing people from legitimate self defense too high a price to achieve that? I think it's like making it near-impossible to get a driver's license because some people drive drunk or because there are occasional pile ups with large casualties for a single driver's mistake, or because of a single driver's intentional homicidal rampage, which happens more often than shooting sprees, but doesn't kill as many people.

Does anyone think banning guns like AR-15's, or even banning all semi-auto rifles and automatic pistols, do you think that would prevent shooting sprees? I don't.
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby Michael on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:51 am

Finny wrote:And a bit rough on Steve BTW Mick - just because he disagrees (politely as always) with your conclusions - no need for that, i thought.

You try having a thread with him some time and then let me know. ;)

It's a lot of fun, you know, there I am doing my best to explain my thoughts to several people who disagree and like to throw zingers at me ("gun nut"-Bailewen, "fix the PRC before you talk about America"-greg, "I thought more guns will be the answer for everything"-graham). I never complained about any of this, but the bloke who called me a crackpot says I was too tough on Steve, and Steve says to me that "all opinions can be dismissed out of hand". Here I thought this was a discussion forum where people gave their opinions. LOL The joke's on me, apparently.

I said it a couple of weeks ago, Steve is a good "push hands" player because he knows all the tricks, and the best people to push hands with are those who are better at it than you, otherwise you're just goofing around. What is not obvious to the observer is "felt" by the participant. I'm pretty sure he enjoys himself during these talks, and even when I don't, something good comes out of it.
Last edited by Michael on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby bailewen on Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:19 am

Michael wrote:People who want to ban guns or make them nearly impossible to obtain, or make the penalties for their illegal possession so excessive that it makes people afraid to go near them, like Graham, Bailewen, and Greg.


I never made that argument. You would get less teasing if you argued with what people said rather than just propping up your imaginary friends to knock down. I made the comparison to auto registration in order to show how absurd your example was regarding how many people can be killed with a car.

AFAIK, neither Greg nor Graham have made that argument either. We've just been pointing out how irrational the pro-gun position is. There's just no data to back up the claims.

Michael wrote:
The fact is in countries with strict gun laws they are a lot less gun deaths and that's a fact I can't ignore. But I suppose you would want us to, unfortunately I have a brain. In fact Australia hasn't had any shooting sprees since changing their laws over 15 years ago.


I think you should look at overall violent crime statistics in relation to availability for the general public to get guns for self defense. You posted the article that showed the crime rate had gone up in Aus and UK, but considering your limited reading skills and alzheimers, you probably weren't able to remember its content or who posted it.


I read the article. It did say that violent crime was up a bit. But not murder and not gun violence. Things like robbery and assault were up. A few more assaults. A lot less actual death. I'd call that a win.

Does anyone think banning guns like AR-15's, or even banning all semi-auto rifles and automatic pistols, do you think that would prevent shooting sprees? I don't.

It reduces the death toll. Like in China where there are virutally no guns at all. People still go on violence sprees but it's just a lot harder to kill 30 people with a knife. That last knife spree at a school had a death toll of....zero. ;)

Since a nuanced position seems to be difficult for most pro-gun folks to understand I'll try and break it down again:

- I have not advocated any particular new gun regulations whatsoever. That doesn't mean I wouldn't support certain reforms but, so far, I have not stated a single position regarding the law.

- Most pro-gun arguments are patently absurd and have basically no scientific data whatsoever to back them up.

Pointing out how absurd some argument is by providing a counter-example does not mean you are arguing for that counter-example. It just means that the argument is absurd.

- Arguing we need our guns to protext us from the gubmint is yellow bamboo level fantasy. It's just magical thinking. I don't think a populace armed with the weapons they just happened to have on hand have thrown over an oppressive government is maybe 100 years or more. Maybe in the pre-industrial age. Nowadays, that's pure gun-mastrabatory fantasy. Even the Afghans needed surface to air missles to push out the soviets.

In contrast, there have been large numbers of relatively non-violence overthrows of incredibly powerful governments. That Arab spring did not rely on military force. India threw out the English without needed AK47's and even the damn Soviet Union collapsed without a shot.

- The self defense argument is absurd because this is not the wild freaking west. In a civilized nation, an actual first world nation, that's what we have police for. That's why I linked Hobbes earlier. Yes. I'll say it: a government monopoly on violence is one of the most civilizing things to happen to mankind in the past 500 years. Pinker makes the argument that maybe the biggest thing was the invention of printing and the humanitarian revolution that it spawned. It's a strong arugment. But one constrant througout has been that the more violence is restricted to the leviathan, the less violence there is in a society overall. Which Michael seems to think puts us at risk up being trapped under the jack boots of an oppressive government. That's true. It does. But my point is that thinking you are going to overthrough a jack boot worn by the United Fucking States of America with your little pea shooter AK47's or 30 bullet clip pistols . . .. is like thinking your going to be the next UFC heavyweight champion because your learned a little Taiji in China last year. It's a fantasy through and through.
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby Finny on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:26 am

Michael wrote:
I never complained about any of this, but the bloke who called me a crackpot says I was too tough on Steve, and Steve says to me that "all opinions can be dismissed out of hand". Here I thought this was a discussion forum where people gave their opinions. LOL The joke's on me, apparently.



I never called you a crackpot. I characterised some of the content you post here (as if it were acknowleged fact) as crackpot conspiracy theory. Personally I enjoy crackpot conspiracy theory, and have no issue with those who choose to subscribe, I just don't is all.


Michael wrote:
I'm pretty sure he enjoys himself during these talks, and even when I don't, something good comes out of it.



Cool - I would hope we all enjoy our discussions here, otherwise why participate at all? Shit after so long on this forum, I even enjoy the crap posted in the main forum by certain new members who can remain unnamed - the sort of crap that has sent so many the way of the dodo.. it's like 'ah - good old ef, still the same..'

Do miss some of the old guard though... DAMN YOU ASURA!!!!!!
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby Finny on Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:33 am

bailewen wrote:
I read the article. It did say that violent crime was up a bit. But not murder and not gun violence. Things like robbery and assault were up. A few more assaults. A lot less actual death. I'd call that a win.



Given the population growth we've had I have no doubt crime figures would be up - do we know if they're per capita stats we're discussing (or the mouthpiece quoted in the article was using)?

As I've said before - it sure seems to me (I think Craig echoed my views on this also, fwiw) that gun violence just isn't an issue here. Much as I'd love the ability to buy an AR-15 to go shooting with, I'm happy to sacrifice that for the increase in safety I think we enjoy down here..
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby grzegorz on Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:04 am

Michael wrote:Not exactly. I said that it doesn't make sense to me that an incompetent person could and would do everything attributed to Lanza, but there are lots of unknowns or unanswered questions. It usually takes a few months to get the answers, by then most people have moved onto the latest news cycle.


True and years later some people still live in denial long after all the facts are out.

From the posted article.

With the exception of an unusual and apparently contrived appearance by Emilie Parker’s alleged father, victims’ family members have been almost wholly absent from public scrutiny.[3] What can be gleaned from this and similar coverage raises many more questions and glaring inconsistencies than answers. While it sounds like an outrageous claim, one is left to inquire whether the Sandy Hook shooting ever took place—at least in the way law enforcement authorities and the nation’s news media have described.
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby everything on Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:28 pm

That's true. It does. But my point is that thinking you are going to overthrough a jack boot worn by the United Fucking States of America with your little pea shooter AK47's or 30 bullet clip pistols . . .. is like thinking your going to be the next UFC heavyweight champion because your learned a little Taiji in China last year. It's a fantasy through and through.


A great point but some idiot always believes the fantasy. We see this video here every week.
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby grzegorz on Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:36 am

True that!
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby grzegorz on Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:09 am

grzegorz wrote:I saw Switzerland brought up on the other thread.

Yes, lots of guns but you break the law and lose your guns. Alao if given a gun you still have to do lots of paperwork.

Watch "Switzerland: So Many Guns, No Mass Shootings | The Daily Show" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/KjlT4BME2aE
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Re: The recent mass shooting and associated topics

Postby grzegorz on Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:56 am

Michael wrote:You've got to be kidding, Steve.

People who want to ban guns or make them nearly impossible to obtain, or make the penalties for their illegal possession so excessive that it makes people afraid to go near them, like Graham, Bailewen, and Greg. There's also those people who implicitly or explicitly support government policies against common gun ownership, like this thread started by JB.


Wrong again.

I do know guns but as in the Swiss example,.you brought up, there are things we can do to reduce gun voilence.
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