hey, mr. moderator-man ???

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The Maximum Power Principle

Postby PartridgeRun on Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:12 pm

So seeing all the recent hooplah regarding politics, economics and the present situation in general here on OTT...I thought this article http://www.dieoff.org/page193.htm on the principle of maximum power, could be of potential interest to all with even an cursory interest in the human condition.
Oh, and don't be put off by the name of the site...it is in fact a real treasuretrove of really well-written and well-researched articles...no, really ;D

EDIT:

Here, a small teaser:
--
In his 1968 classic, THE TRAGEDY OF THE COMMONS, [[22]] Garrett Hardin illustrates why the why communities everywhere are headed for tragedy -- it's because freedom in the commons brings ruin to all:



Visualize a pasture as a system that is open to everyone. The carrying capacity of this pasture is 10 animals. Ten herdsmen are each grazing an animal to fatten up for market. In other words, the 10 animals are now consuming all the grass that the pasture can produce.



Harry (one of the herdsmen) will add one more animal to the pasture if he can make a profit. He subtracts the original cost of the new animal from the expected sales price of the fattened animal and then considers the cost of the food. Adding one more animal will mean less food for each of the present animals, but since Harry only has only 1/10 of the herd, he has to pay only 1/10 of the cost. Harry decides to "exploit" (make the best use of) the commons, so he adds an animal and takes a profit.



Shrinking profit margins force the other herdsmen either to go out of business or add more animals too. This process of mutual exploitation continues until overgrazing and erosion destroy the pasture system, and all the herdsmen are driven out of business.



Most importantly, Hardin illustrates the critical flaw of freedom in the commons: all participants must agree to conserve the commons, but any one can force the destruction of the commons. Although Hardin describes exploitation by humans in an unregulated public pasture, his commons and "grass" principle fit our entire society.



So-called "private property" is inextricably part of our commons because it is part of our life support and social systems. Owners alter the emergent properties of our life support and social systems when they alter their land to "make a profit" -- cover land with corn or concrete.



Neighborhoods, cities and states are commons in the sense that no one is denied entry. Anyone may enter and lay claim to the common resources. One can see "profits" as a commons when any number of corporations -- from anywhere in the world -- and drive down profits by competing with local businesses for customers.



One can see "wages" as commons when any number of workers -- from anywhere in the world -- can enter our community and drive down wages by competing with local workers for jobs. People themselves even become commons when exploited by others. Everywhere one looks, one sees the tragedy. There is no technological solution to the problem of the commons, but governments can act to limit access to the commons, at which time they are no longer commons.



In the private-money based political system we have in America, everything (including people) becomes the commons because money is political power, and all political decisions are reduced to economic ones. In other words, we have no political system, only an economic system -- everything for sale. Thus, America is one big commons that will be exploited until it is destroyed.
--
Last edited by PartridgeRun on Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Maximum Power Principle

Postby Teazer on Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:54 pm

You are omitting the fact that whereas with the standard tragedy of the commons externality, overall social welfare is decreased, the opposite is the case with profit. The difference is due to profit not being an externality per se. As more firms enter a market, the price is driven down benefiting consumers and new firm to a greater extent than it disadvantages the existing firms.
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Re: The Maximum Power Principle

Postby ashe on Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:38 pm

i'm shutting this one down and sending it to BTDT.

the mikes earned a one way ticket out the door by trolling OTT so everyone should keep that in mind before they start another topic like this.
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hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby PartridgeRun on Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:14 am

Moderator Ashe;

With all due respect and all that - why on earth did you lock the thread on the maximum power principle?
That thread/post had no political agenda, no soundbites style "information", no vitriol, nothing of the sort.... What it DID contain was some brainfodder and a real potential for good debate.

I'm a bit flabbergasted here... do you have your inquisitor-hat on today or something ???
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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby I-mon on Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:49 am

yeah i don't get it. what's up Ashe, no more politics?
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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:17 am

guy, it's poor etiquette to contest a moderators decision in public.

The moderators explained his position and it is contrary to your opinion.

that's all there is to it.

were I too start a thread that was deemed unacceptable, and was told so, I would simply accept that and move on.
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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby Royal Dragon on Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:25 am

You know, i just read it in the BTDT forum. It's an interesting, thought provoking article. Given the threads allowed too stand on Off Topic, I can't see why it would be closed either.
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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby Chris Fleming on Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:27 am

PartridgeRun wrote:Moderator Ashe;

With all due respect and all that - why on earth did you lock the thread on the maximum power principle?
That thread/post had no political agenda, no soundbites style "information", no vitriol, nothing of the sort.... What it DID contain was some brainfodder and a real potential for good debate.

I'm a bit flabbergasted here... do you have your inquisitor-hat on today or something ???




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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby chud on Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:01 am

the mikes earned a one way ticket out the door by trolling OTT so everyone should keep that in mind before they start another topic like this.


Who are "the mikes"? MikeC and Mike Strong? Were they banned?

Btw, I've actually met Mike Strong in person and he's a heckuva nice guy.
Last edited by chud on Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby Josealb on Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:16 am

Its usually a good idea to PM a mod and ask them about stuff like this. Usually in private you get a more detailed answer.
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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby bigphatwong on Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:04 am

For what it's worth, I found it an interesting and thought provoking topic too...one that I am just now getting around to digesting, however too late. :-\

I don't think questioning a mod's call is any worse etiquette than questioning a baseball ump's call. Sure it might get you thrown out of the game, but at least there will be no grey areas as to where everyone stands.

BTW this is nothing like what the Mikes do, which is post something deliberately inflammatory with little or no back story, then fling turds at anyone who disagrees.
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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby Michael on Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:38 am

Hello, PartridgeRun. Welcome to Empty Flower. Would you be so kind as to introduce yourself on this thread?

Best,
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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby Bill on Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:47 am

Normally I support whatever the mod wants to do, but in this case is different in that the late Garrett Hardin was an instructor of mine when I was at UCSB. The class I took from him, Human Ecology, was one of the most interesting classes I have ever had. I consider Prof. Hardin to be the most intelligent man I have ever met. Very impressive command of facts and dates and how things inter-relate. His paper, later expanded to a book, The Tragedy of the Commons, is a classic.

http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/
Last edited by Bill on Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby chud on Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:48 am

I found the article interesting as well.
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Re: hey, mr. moderator-man ???

Postby bigphatwong on Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:00 am

Bill wrote: I consider Prof. Hardin to be the most intelligent man I have ever met. Very impressive command of facts and dates and how things inter-relate. His paper, later expanded to a book, The Tragedy of the Commons, is a classic.

http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/


With all respect to your professor, he must have gotten murdered at school with that last name. ;D
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