Swords with hand guards, swords without

[klonk]

Spinning off from this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21492 : The question came up about differences in technique if your sword has no hand guard, or has one. The shashka, the machete used as a weapon and a few other types have no hand guards. Most swords of the world have something or other serving as a hand guard, though. Must be a pretty good idea.

I am going out on a limb here. The technique required (indeed, forced upon you) by a sword that lacks a hand guard is only a subset of what you can do if your sword has one. Identifying this subset may be interesting, but we need not look for any special techniques that are particular to the sword without a hand guard. There are, instead, techniques you must avoid.

The classic techniques with the shashka appear to be mostly of three kinds:

1: Voiding the attack by stepping or leaning back, or to the side, or by ducking, or even by jumping over a low cut.

2: A beat parry that flows seamlessly into a counterattack: Strike the other blade to deflect it and continue your movement to form an attack.

3: A deflection with your point trailing, so that the other blade slides down yours, away from your hand, not up your blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StucLOl ... re=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cFMGOl ... re=related

You can do all these things with a hand guard on your sword. You can do more besides. You can parry in a blocking manner; you can parry "with opposition" to counter-attack along the other blade, you can do various things to try to control your opponent's blade and push it around with your own.

So then the art of the sword without a hand guard consists in knowing what not to do, when you compare it to the larger technical vocabulary of swords with.

So it seems to me. Would you analyze it differently? And whether you would or not, can you see any advantages in a sword without a hand guard?

[Steve James]

Personally, I see no advantage to lacking a hand guard. However, learning how to use a weapons without the guard is practical when they are the only weapons readily available. If I had my druthers, I'druther have one of these

over one of these

But, both would work just fine.

[Doc Stier]

Swords without a hand guard can result in a hand without fingers, imo.

[Andy_S]

Hand guard enables a strong stab - the key tactic with many, many swords. (ie if you dont' have a hand guard, and you stab something hard - an armoured body or even a bone - your hand will slide along the blade and the power of the stab is lost.)

The hand guards on most swords, in most centuries, is designed for that, rather than to protect the user's hand. (eg look at the handguards on jin, which give little or no protection to the user's hand.)

The elaborate basket hilts, etc, came very late in the development of the sword.

[klonk]

Here is something you can do with a guardless sword, a sort of finger moulinet. It does not look at all secure to me. Doing it at the wrong moment would end with you disarmed. (So don't do it at the wrong moment, one might retort.) I tried these procedures with a fencing saber and the hand guard was in the way; I tried them with a yardstick instead and they worked fine. Does the ability to spin your sword in this fashion constitute any practical advantage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwSozVwgTXY

[Steve James]

Hmm, afa the spinning, we used to practice that as training. First, just doing it with the "tiger's mouth," then ... Well, it should start with the body. Anyway, my point is really that it is possible to do with a traditional jian.

I also think that hand guards have hilts, but plenty of swords without hilts don't have hand guards. For ex., the "Viking" swords such as these:
The spinning could easily be done with them.

It'd be more difficult, imo, to do so with these Renaissance types:


I think that Andy's right about the need for a hilt when thrusting. However, I think that slashing was the primary technique for many (most?) of the early swords.

[klonk]

The degree of added difficulty will depend on the type of handguard; without any, there is no difficulty at all. I tried it with an old style cruciform hilt. It is possible to run into the upper cross-guard arm with the back of your thumb, though you can avoid that with care. Is that the (or a) reason why many jians have smallish lobed guards instead of long crossbars in the same place? There is less to interfere with a twirl.

You sometimes see sword spinning used in movies, and it looks dramatic. It seems to me more show than go. It is vulnerable to a disarm. If your opponent spins his sword, a strong beat from your blade may send his sword helicoptering away. So I remain puzzled about why exactly someone would want to do the spin, if he isn't in the Screen Actors Guild. In martial arts (as in so many other things) not everything that can be done should be done.

'Course I might be missin' something here. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Steve James]

Is that why many jians have smallish lobed guards instead of long crossbars in the same place? There is less to interfere with a twirl.

The way I was taught, iirc, the "lobed" guards were most often on "wen" (or scholar's) jians. I.e., they weren't necessarily just decorative, but they weren't meant for warfare. They were the personal weapons of a certain class of person who traveled. However, some would say that it was also meant to signify great skill. For ex., in many statues of Confucius, he carries a sword. I tried to find a picture with a close up of his entire weapon, but here's something close. Note that the rounded hilt;


Then, there are the "wu" jians, which are almost always longer, heavier and (in iron/steel) have different shaped handguard/hilts. For ex., types like this


Afa the purpose of the twirling, ime, it's primarily a way to train the "ring" formed by thumb and forefinger. However, the purpose of that strength is to allow flexibility of the wrist. Eventually, the idea is to be able to "twirl" using the wrist with the hand closed around the hilt. ... Btw, ime, it's difficult to do it using just wrist strength.

It's possible to "stab" with a wu jian, sure, but that's not the primary technique. Ime, the idea is more akin to "point" striking as opposed to stabbing; so flexibility is more desired than strength.

[Steve James]

And, if you're really worried about machetes without hilts, just get one of these:

[Andy_S]

RE: Maiden with Machette
Would that be Mrs. James, Steve?

[Steve James]

I think it's the blade maker's mom.

[Andy_S]

Oh. Well anyways, she looks, er, most delightful.