Shooting of the Week

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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:38 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
I'm optimistic, so I was hoping for a political angle/solution.


I agree that there needs to be more discussion on a solution to these problems. I also feel that part of the problem is that there is such a vocal movement denying the existence and/or the nature of the problem that it is difficult to proceed until there is some consensus on this.

Here is a short (5min) interview that raises some important points, IMO:

"Prof. Kathleen Belew on understanding the Christchurch terror attack as part of a larger, transnational white power movement and the danger of viewing it as an isolated “lone wolf” incident."

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/17/70420967 ... AMM-kNkFE4

I read the transcript. Probably too brief to say much except the part about a transnational ideology spreading. The obvious question is what is the vector? I don't think it's something intangible like hate, but more likely globalization.

I'm on p. 65/74 of the NZ shooter's manifesto. I've heard some insightful commentaries about the manifesto online already, but not from mainstream media. In fact, while hiking today, I listened to quite a long live stream hosted by an Oklahoma conservative named RAMZPAUL, a Finnish woman (nationalist? not sure), and a well-known, young Syrian political commentator, who's been outspoken since the Arab Spring.

Syrian Girl made a lot of good points about the long history of Abrahamic religions and all the inconsistencies about the shooter's motivations, how incorrect he is to call Muslims in New Zealand "invaders". She had a lot of good counter points to his manifesto and she's probably 25 y.o. or younger, doing her chemistry Ph D in Perth.

One of her points is that US/NATO/Israel foreign policy creates actual military invaders in Syria, Iraq, etc., whose refugees often end up back in the countries that created the crisis, perhaps in France or America. But for an Australian man to call Muslims in NZ "invaders" is wrong, they came peacefully, and also hypocritical considering that Maori and other Pacific Islanders were there before Europeans. Some standard arguments, but good counterpoints to the manifesto. She answers questions well about religion and ethnicity, particularly regarding Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Jesus, Mohammed, and Syria.

It's too long, though, but I'll post it here anyway, just in case. I extracted the mp3 and just listened on headphones.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BYB2y03WOA
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby edededed on Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:44 pm

People naturally think that they are not evil - I wonder how many people actually think/admit that they are an extremist. I would guess that boundaries (e.g. nationalist vs. white nationalist) are vague and/or gradual. For example, "white nationalists" may not actually have concrete visions about having a white-only state - maybe they just tend to not like non-white people. Some people may or may not have a soft spot for non-white Christians (of the same type).

The obvious problem in America is that each side points to the other, and screams "extremist!" Not the best way to actually have a dialog towards betterment. Focus should be on commonalities first. Strangely, we all did grow up in the same country, with the same language.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:34 pm

(e.g. nationalist vs. white nationalist)


Actually, White nationalists by definition propose the existence of a White nation. Whether they would permit not-White to live there is really irrelevant. "Nation" really means people, not just a geographical region. At one time, nation meant "race." (Read the Bible). The Japanese nation is the Japanese people, not the Japanese empire. White nationalists here assert that the US is a White nation/country, though some others can be allowed to live here. To them, Whiteness is what defines being a bonified US citizen.

The irony, of course, is that this nation's motto is E Pluribus Unum, and it was once proud to be the one place in the world where opportunity was open to everyone --and anyone who came. That didn't mean the elites; it meant the "refuse." Reagan said it, and he was certainly on the "Right."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R8QxCD6ir8

That is precisely what "nationalists" here do not believe. It is the reason, however, why so many people (of all stripes and colors) feel Patriotic. I'm with them. Sorry.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby edededed on Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:32 pm

Yeah - I agree with you. I am just saying that people's labels of themselves often do not match how others label them.

For example, in Japanese, the word for "nationalist" doesn't seem that well-known (except to academics, etc.) in my experience. Thus, many who might be thought of as Japanese nationalists by foreigners would not think of themselves that way (without even a real word in their mind for it). "Patriotism" is a word that everyone knows, on the other hand, and they certainly would think of themselves as patriotic.

When I grew up in the US, I did feel like any other American, too - nowadays, it seems that more and more people do not think that way. What happens when the majority of people follow the "new" (old?) way?
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:04 pm

Michael wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
I'm optimistic, so I was hoping for a political angle/solution.


I agree that there needs to be more discussion on a solution to these problems. I also feel that part of the problem is that there is such a vocal movement denying the existence and/or the nature of the problem that it is difficult to proceed until there is some consensus on this.

Here is a short (5min) interview that raises some important points, IMO:

"Prof. Kathleen Belew on understanding the Christchurch terror attack as part of a larger, transnational white power movement and the danger of viewing it as an isolated “lone wolf” incident."

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/17/70420967 ... AMM-kNkFE4

I read the transcript. Probably too brief to say much except the part about a transnational ideology spreading. The obvious question is what is the vector? I don't think it's something intangible like hate, but more likely globalization.

I'm on p. 65/74 of the NZ shooter's manifesto. I've heard some insightful commentaries about the manifesto online already, but not from mainstream media. In fact, while hiking today, I listened to quite a long live stream hosted by an Oklahoma conservative named RAMZPAUL, a Finnish woman (nationalist? not sure), and a well-known, young Syrian political commentator, who's been outspoken since the Arab Spring.

Syrian Girl made a lot of good points about the long history of Abrahamic religions and all the inconsistencies about the shooter's motivations, how incorrect he is to call Muslims in New Zealand "invaders". She had a lot of good counter points to his manifesto and she's probably 25 y.o. or younger, doing her chemistry Ph D in Perth.

One of her points is that US/NATO/Israel foreign policy creates actual military invaders in Syria, Iraq, etc., whose refugees often end up back in the countries that created the crisis, perhaps in France or America. But for an Australian man to call Muslims in NZ "invaders" is wrong, they came peacefully, and also hypocritical considering that Maori and other Pacific Islanders were there before Europeans. Some standard arguments, but good counterpoints to the manifesto. She answers questions well about religion and ethnicity, particularly regarding Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Jesus, Mohammed, and Syria.

It's too long, though, but I'll post it here anyway, just in case. I extracted the mp3 and just listened on headphones.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BYB2y03WOA


I absolutely agree. It's too short, but you get what you get. She has other pieces out there that are much more nuanced. I think it's quite useful as it follows the changes in movements from decade to decade, etc. Of course, she and her colleagues receive death threats and have to take precautions that I won't say here.

From your description, I am very interested in the vid and other writings of this young woman. I am not sympathetic to any of the US's colonial or neocolonial edeavors, so I will make an effort to listen to it soon. I'm a bit under the gun until next week, though--and unfortunately behind schedule on this year's research project ( :-X ).

Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:20 pm

Aw, when I was growing up, it was common for people with thick accents to tell me to go back "where I came from." Having ancestors going back to the revolution had no meaning. People would snatch American flags out of your hands if you were protesting, or demanding the right to register or vote. All those civil rights era pictures of dogs and water hoses took place at voter registration drives. People were beaten to death for riding a bus.

Yeah, there seem to be many instances of people shouting at others to go back where they came from. Nowadays, it's not necessarily racial; often it's about language --or religion. It happened to the Irish, the Italians, the Poles, the Jews, and the Japanese. You know, if you look Asian, people will ask you where you're from --even if your grandparents grew up in Brooklyn or Oakland.

Go anywhere else in the world and they'll know you're an American. My Japanese/French friend said that she would always be recognized as American in Japan, and as Asian in the US. The thing is; some people think that's normal here. What they really mean is that it's not a problem for them. However, it can mean a lot.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:22 pm

Yeah, cool. If I find something more concise, I'll post it here as she does a decent job of connecting the basic historical roots of these religions and their geography to current situations. The most interesting part of her answering livestream audience questions was her talking about whether or not any of the 3 Abrahamic religions are racially exclusive, and how this relates to national identity. Probably basic level discussion when you have a few minutes to answer, so better than the TV pundits.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:02 pm

any of the 3 Abrahamic religions are racially exclusive, and how this relates to national identity.


Whoa. In the OT, the children of Abraham are told 'not to mingle with other nations' among which they dwell. Jews are exclusive, but not racially exclusive. There are racist Jews and Jews who don't like schwarzes, but Sammy Davis Jr. was Jewish, and Ivanka converted too. And, there are Jews (and Christians) in Ethiopia who've been there longer than there've been Jews or Christians in Europe.

Islam is definitely not racially exclusive, though like all the other religions, it has its racists. The prophet's right hand man, whom he considered his most faithful follower. was his African servant Bilal. The split in Islam is related to the prophet's succession. Many thought he wanted it to be Bilal.

Afa Christianity, c'mon, is it racially exclusive? :) Maybe to some Americans. To the Spaniards who brought Christianity to the new world. Fuck no. They just baptized your ass ... in Latin, no less.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:46 pm

That's pretty much what Syrian Girl said to make the point that for someone to say Europeans owned Christianity and that Muslims couldn't integrate into a "white" country does not fit with a longer historical pattern, or with an insistence that race, nationality, and religion can not vary independently. I think this point needs more attention and elucidation. I didn't grow up with religious training, so I wasn't really aware of it.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:05 am

The New York Times: Gunman Attacks Tram Passengers in Utrecht, Dutch Police Say.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/18/worl ... lands.html
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:23 am

I'm glad they haven't identified the shooter yet. This way we can all agree that it was horrible for the innocent victims. It doesn't matter who or why he or she did it.

Right now, millions of people are praying "I hope it wasn't ...". I say, chill, ... just don't fucking be that guy. Imo, treat anyone like him the same.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Bill on Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:34 am

Image

37 year old Gokman Tanis born in Turkey
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:47 am

Steve James wrote:I'm glad they haven't identified the shooter yet. This way we can all agree that it was horrible for the innocent victims. It doesn't matter who or why he or she did it.

Right now, millions of people are praying "I hope it wasn't ...". I say, chill, ... just don't fucking be that guy. Imo, treat anyone like him the same.

The Blame Game



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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:31 am

Bill wrote:Image

37 year old Gokman Tanis born in Turkey


If true, he looks like he could just as easily be a Pierre, Paolo, or Pablo. Anyway, now we may know; so people can decide how they feel about murder.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby yeniseri on Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:47 am

Michael wrote:That's pretty much what Syrian Girl said to make the point that for someone to say Europeans owned Christianity and that Muslims couldn't integrate into a "white" country does not fit with a longer historical pattern, or with an insistence that race, nationality, and religion can not vary independently. I think this point needs more attention and elucidation. I didn't grow up with religious training, so I wasn't really aware of it.


True dat! If one knows history, Christianity began in what is known as the Middle East then it took root in East Africa (Ethiopia), where it again ended up in Europe. It does not help that Islam hegemony has forced it out of its birthplace and is still trying to destroy that origin and it seems to be doing a great job, sadly! As we know, the Copts in Egypt just had a terrorist incident when around 15 people or so were killed just because.......Evil must be destroyed by any means necessary while according to the US doctrine of stand your ground.veracity and honesty..self defense is a right for ALL under threat. Evil is always trying to be slick
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