Shooting of the Week

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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:57 am

klonk wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:While it is to be applauded when conservatives recognize how terrible it was for Reagan and the Republicans to throw the severely mentally ill out on the streets, I'm not sure what that has to do with mass shootings. Mental illness is certainly not the primary or constant factor (as has been pointed out).

Clearly, other countries have problems with mental illness, yet no other country has anything resembling our mass shooting problem. There is only one constant.


Actually, the heave-ho onto the streets predates Reagan. Nice try.

If you are looking for a constant, it is insanity of a particular, homicidal kind. Google Anders Brevik Norway
for a foreign example.

For a while, I kept tabs on events of the kind and noticed a similarity. It goes beyond nationality and race.

http://shootery.blogspot.com/2014/05/ma ... -eyes.html


Yes, there was a shift away from the extremely inhumane treatment of the mentally ill but there were stop gaps which were actually quite effective. Then some of the most helpful (and local--thought you conservatives liked that?) were slashed by Reagan.


Pretty basic:

The Mental Health Systems Act of 1980 (MHSA) was United States legislation signed by President Jimmy Carter which provided grants to community mental health centers. During the following Ronald Reagan administration, the United States Congress repealed most of the law.[1] The MHSA was considered landmark legislation in mental health care policy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_He ... ct_of_1980

Anyway, of course there is some nuance to the causes of mass shootings, but that should not prevent anyone from recognizing the one factor that stands out in the US above all others, especially in comparison to other neo-imperial countries.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:57 am

The kid had issues
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:01 am

Anyway, of course there is some nuance to the causes of mass shootings, but that should not prevent anyone from recognizing the one factor that stands out in the US above all others, especially in comparison to other neo-imperial countries.


See, if the cause is mental illness, then ya have to explain why there's more of it here. If it's not mental illness, then ya have to explain why there's more of it here. If it is a disease, then why is the epidemic restricted?
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:02 am

the presence of a smallish set of localities that are practically free fire zones.


Yes, it's called rural America. I lived there. The neighbors were always shooting off fully automatic rifles. Never heard that in Southside Chicago or West Oakland. And certainly heard less gunfire in these places. I also certainly felt most uncomfortable when some militia dude bullied me in my local market in Vida, OR on his way to take over the federal refuge.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:06 am

Steve James wrote:
Anyway, of course there is some nuance to the causes of mass shootings, but that should not prevent anyone from recognizing the one factor that stands out in the US above all others, especially in comparison to other neo-imperial countries.


See, if the cause is mental illness, then ya have to explain why there's more of it here. If it's not mental illness, then ya have to explain why there's more of it here. If it is a disease, then why is the epidemic restricted?


What factor would that be?
seems to work here

Maybe it would be good to compare what they do, with what the US does not do....

FACT: Gun ownership is high in Switzerland, at approximately .5 guns per person. About 30% of Swiss citizens own guns. Military issued firearms may be purchased from the government after service, and then the gun is converted to a non-assault weapon. Restrictions can be placed on both the firearm and its ammunition. Put simply, the idea that the Swiss are required to own firearms and the idea that all Swiss own firearms are myths.

http://factmyth.com/factoids/switzerlan ... -own-guns/
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:21 am

I don't understand your point. But, Switzerland is a terrible comparison. Every male Swiss is required to serve in the military. So, every Swiss home has a military weapon (and a bomb shelter). However, every weapon and bullet is registered and accounted for. I would love for the US to adopt the Swiss system.

Switzerland doesn't have an army. Switzerland is an army. Another difference is that we have a lot more mentally ill males. That needs to be explained.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:31 am

Just an FYI about Switzerland. After one dude there went a bit mad maybe 10 years ago with his H & K, can't remember if he shot someone or just threatened his GF, something like that. Anyway, they no longer let/require them to keep 50 rounds of ammo in house, so they have their fully autos in da crib, but no bullets.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:40 am

That was a really good article, btw. The writer's "bottom line" makes sense. Swiss citizens have weapons for collective defense, not personal defense.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:45 am

Steve James wrote:I However, every weapon and bullet is registered and accounted for.
I would love for the US to adopt the Swiss system.



Whats preventing the states from enacting the same type of system....or the elected officials from passing laws doing so.

Speaking of which there are federal laws that some states don't feel they have to support.
Concerning Cannabis and illegal aliens.

Why would any law passed as you suggested be any different ?

BTW I did some tech training in Switzerland a while back,
the guys I knew there seem to have different views then those presented here,
about why they own guns and what they do with them....
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:48 am

Michael wrote:Just an FYI about Switzerland. After one dude there went a bit mad maybe 10 years ago with his H & K, can't remember if he shot someone or just threatened his GF, something like that. Anyway, they no longer let/require them to keep 50 rounds of ammo in house, so they have their fully autos in da crib, but no bullets.


Yeah, things are changing. There will probably be another referendum on eliminating national service. It should be remembered that Switzerland is surrounded by potential enemies that were only kept at bay by the mountains and the army. That's why all men served. After WWII, and the A-bomb, every new home had to have a shelter. But, where I lived, people used them as wine cellars.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:51 am

Which law did I suggest?
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:53 am

Steve James wrote:Which law did I suggest?


I However, every weapon and bullet is registered and accounted for.
I would love for the US to adopt the Swiss system.


Maybe I misunderstood....
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:10 am

windwalker wrote:Whats preventing the states from enacting the same type of system....or the elected officials from passing laws doing so.

Why would any law passed as you suggested be any different ?


Conscription laws are about as serious as it gets, as I'm sure you know. :)

Giving all men the right to vote back in England—because not all males had it then—was partly, perhaps largely (I'm no expert on this bit of history), due to conscription. It just wouldn't be fair to force you into labor under the most hazardous conditions imaginable when you can't even vote, so they rationalized this trade-off instead of just paying more for the job and attracting those who'd want it.

I don't know that many dudes from European countries with mandatory military service, but all of them did everything they possibly could to avoid it. If mandatory military service laws in the USA were enacted per state, men would just move to another state, declare themselves retroactively female, accumulate too many gender neutral pronouns to fit onto a dog tag, whatever's necessary.

I'm going to mention this briefly for any American girls reading who don't know that since 1979, every male in the USA is obligated to 8 YEARS of military service and has to register his address and phone number with the US govt from age 18-26 in order to be called up if they're not on active duty. Only men have to do this in the USA.

Speaking of which there are federal laws that some states don't feel they have to support.
Concerning Cannabis and illegal aliens.

California Attorney General says he will prosecute anyone who follows federal law to help ICE deport illegals, then Cali declared itself a sanctuary state. Not quite Ft. Sumter level of going your own way, but definitely got one foot out the door, and that journey didn't begin with Trump.

I really would have no problem to envision that if men in the USA were called up for military service, which I would be against, that California would declare itself a sanctuary for any of them who are minorities. I'm not sure if the country is that fractured at the moment, but maybe.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:24 am

windwalker wrote:
Steve James wrote:Which law did I suggest?


I However, every weapon and bullet is registered and accounted for.
I would love for the US to adopt the Swiss system.


Maybe I misunderstood....


By the "Swiss system", first I meant mandatory service, which would include learning gun use and safety. (I'm actually not anti-gun at all). Other than that, all guns would be registered and licensed. I would love that system. I don't feel unsafe because of school shooters or mass murderers. I'm scared of idiots with weapons, period. Iinm, there are more accidents and suicides than mass shootings.

The suicides can legitimately be considered mental health issues. But, they might be caused by depression over a love affair. There's no way to stop a person from owning a firearm and then falling in or out of love. I have no idea, but I'll bet that the number of "murder-suicides" are relatively similar everywhere.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:36 am

I favor required national service (to the country), but I didn't think that Vietnam was a threat. And, I also saw lots of injustice here. I thought my national service was federal prison.
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