Shooting of the Week

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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:20 pm

@ I-Mon: I guess the times they are changing. In the USA, the mass murderer Ted Kaczyniski had his manifesto published in the 90's in the New York Times and Washington Post, and just a few years ago a cop from Los Angeles had his manifesto published in 2014 after he was accused of killing three people. Breivik had his manifesto. I don't think these people should get any notoriety, but it seems impossible to prevent and appears more of a symbolic gesture to ban their writings.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:52 pm

now the papers have no total news control of course they want to ban such things, they are too late to get their hands on this stuff.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:10 pm

I wonder if banning it gives it more power. If they can't get Kim Dot Com into jail, can they get a small PDF off the torrents? I doubt it.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby I-mon on Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:01 am

Actually in both Australia and NZ there was a clear divide between papers/news orgs which did publish big things with the guy's name and photo all over their front pages, vs those which didn't, and instead put photos of the victims or of course the photogenic prime minister.

Maybe banning it gives it more power in a way, in that those people who are really interested will be able to seek out and find the forbidden knowledge, but it takes it out of the mainstream, out of the faces of people who can't be bothered looking into it that deeply but who would be exposed to it every day if it was on the front pages of the paper. It's similar to hosting rabid rightwing neo-nazis on prime-time talk shows or "good morning" TV (something that happens reasonably regularly in Australia), vs letting them say whatever the fuck they like but just not hosting it right in the middle of mainstream media as if they're people with reasonable views we should be having calm debates with.

The dude was a fucking troll, banning his manifesto at least makes sense as a way of not continuing his trolling for him, since that's obviously what he wanted, which is why he wrote a manifesto.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:31 am

Exactly and those who would take the time to read the works are nothing more than sympathetic to that cause.

A nazi mass murderer killed 50 people including children so you would read his writings.

And you did? What does that say about you?
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:25 pm

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people would read that crap. People repeated the lies of Alex Jones that Sandy Hook was fake and last week a father committed suicide.



Watch "Alex Jones shows little remorse in Sandy Hook deposition" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/9QSrNgFPiJM

Apparently real nazis are worth reading.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:54 pm

The simple argument against reading his manifesto (or Brevik's, Kaczinski's, etc) is that they did what they did SO THAT PEOPLE WOULD READ THEIR MANIFESTO. If you read it, they've succeeded. There was no law that prevented him from writing it, or from anyone reading it, WITHOUT MASS MURDERING TENS or HUNDREDS of people.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:19 pm

I-mon wrote:The dude was a fucking troll, banning his manifesto at least makes sense as a way of not continuing his trolling for him, since that's obviously what he wanted, which is why he wrote a manifesto.

No doubt. I don't think people should have that in their faces for a few reasons. I don't have any problem with banning it, I'm just surprised they did.

The topic makes me begin thinking about when the govt should take action against harmful ideas. We used to do it in order to keep harmful material from crossing the border, a preventative measure that has lost most of its effectiveness since the internet, and we used to censor much more obscene material, like porn, etc. The underlying rationale, the principle involved for banning a manifesto should be applicable to a wider range of harmful or destabilizing ideas, IMO.

This is a bit of a jump from mass shootings, but I think the worst parts of capitalism and banking policy should be banned after proving to be harmful and de-stabilizing.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:52 pm

If someone just has to know about Nazism, he can always read Mein Kampf (which was re-published a year or so ago in Europe). https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... -published

It's a first-hand source. Nope, he didn't have to mass murder anyone to get it read, but one can just compare what he actually wrote to what actually happened. No need to take anyone's word for it. Though, anyone from Israel would be happy to fill in the details. Of course, there's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" which is second hand, but was written right after the war when everyone's memory was fresh.

If someone wants to learn about the "far right" in the states, read "The Turner Diaries." It was/is the bible for people like the Oklahoma bomber. It's the work that lays out the need/plan for a "race war."

Anyway, I only hate to advertise those works because there are many ready to believe them, and some who are just looking for a reason to be convinced. I'd prefer them to find out on their own and come to a decision about them similar to mine. However, I'd say that knowing what the originators said does give someone the ability to recognize when it's being repeated, and it's purpose, even if some of the terms or categories are altered.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:08 pm

Michael wrote:
I-mon wrote:The dude was a fucking troll, banning his manifesto at least makes sense as a way of not continuing his trolling for him, since that's obviously what he wanted, which is why he wrote a manifesto.

No doubt. I don't think people should have that in their faces for a few reasons. I don't have any problem with banning it, I'm just surprised they did.

The topic makes me begin thinking about when the govt should take action against harmful ideas. We used to do it in order to keep harmful material from crossing the border, a preventative measure that has lost most of its effectiveness since the internet, and we used to censor much more obscene material, like porn, etc. The underlying rationale, the principle involved for banning a manifesto should be applicable to a wider range of harmful or destabilizing ideas, IMO.

This is a bit of a jump from mass shootings, but I think the worst parts of capitalism and banking policy should be banned after proving to be harmful and de-stabilizing.


sounds like F 451




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9iyKI2pJbE
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:23 pm

Michael wrote:This is a bit of a jump from mass shootings, but I think the worst parts of capitalism and banking policy should be banned after proving to be harmful and de-stabilizing.


Capitalism?

Making money is what Infowars is all about.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:31 pm

Fahrenheit 451 is about the burning of ALL books. It's about anti-intellectualism because thought threatens the state.

Afa book burnings, the idea came from the Nazis, who were famous for that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq17XfEjNfs

Of course, the Nazi book burnings were promoted by Hilter's propaganda minister (Josef Goebbels) --whose story everyone should know/learn. He was a real Nazi, so loyal that he and his wife poisoned their 6 children after their fuehrer had committed suicide. Oh well, just so that you get an idea of how fanatic they were.

On the evening of 1 May, Goebbels arranged for an SS dentist, Helmut Kunz, to inject his six children with morphine so that when they were unconscious, an ampule of cyanide could be then crushed in each of their mouths.[239] According to Kunz's later testimony, he gave the children morphine injections but it was Magda Goebbels and SS-Obersturmbannführer Ludwig Stumpfegger, Hitler's personal doctor, who administered the cyanide.[239]


Anyway, that's what's expected of "true believers." Anyway, it doesn't take genius to realize that if a Muslim went into a church on Sunday and shot fifty Christians, there would be no clamor to force people to read the IS manifesto or the Quran.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:14 pm

Anyway, it doesn't take genius to realize that if a Muslim went into a church on Sunday and shot fifty Christians, there would be no clamor to force people to read the IS manifesto or the Quran.

I don't quite follow. Forcing people to read the manifesto isn't really the issue, or do you just mean the same as I-Mon, that it wouldn't be popularized and put on the front page?
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:32 pm

sounds like F 451


I'm getting at the criteria for banning written works, images, and ideas/ideologies. Saw the movie, didn't read the book, so I don't think the extreme example of Fahrenheit 451 total book burning is meaningful as a warning against burning books. It doesn't really have an effect, books are still commonly censored in the USA, I think Mark Twain being the most commonly banned.

The meaningful part to me is the dissidence of the fire fighter and those who preserve the knowledge, but the real question that is brought up is the moral reason for limiting the spread of some ideas, such as banning the NZ shooter's manifesto because it promotes violence. Is there a good reason to ban some books?

Of course, the Nazi book burnings were promoted by Hilter's propaganda minister (Josef Goebbels) --whose story everyone should know/learn.


Steve, do you know what type of books were burned and why? I'm not that familiar, but I've heard some were burned for obscenity.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:06 pm

I don't see the point in reading it. He was against immigrants and foreigners. Much like this guy who put his hate into a rap but because the mass murdered killed 50 people paid attention to him.

Watch "A Chinese rap song to all foreigners in china (translated)" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/tjk-eyPy4qo

I guess the question is if someone murdered 50 foreigners in China would you feel the need the read them? I think reading those works is an insult to the victims.

(The tune deserves its own thread.)
Last edited by grzegorz on Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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