Shooting of the Week

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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:10 am

All that to say that you're right in condemning Muslims as a group. OK, then why isn't condemning White people because of the KKK's and Nazism's "White" ideology not valid? I can show you some of their quotes going back over a century.

So, I think it's stupid to blame a religion or a "race" for the actions of an individual who claims to represent or to act on their behalf. That is an absurdity, and those who can be made to believe absurdities can be made to commit atrocities.

And, getting back to the point I want "White" people to know is that smart people don't blame them because of their race. It stops them from asking silly questions like "how come your people can't stop all the violence?" How come your people can't stop? Why don't they stop using drugs? Or, why not ask Catholics can't stop priests from abusing children?
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:28 am

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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:43 am

Steve James wrote:
The KKK is a group and the violence they carried out was certainly connected to their group identity. I think there are other examples, but they rarely work the way conservatives try and identify them.


Yes, I understand; and you're right that I used "sub group" with a particular meaning. I'd never blame "White" people for the actions of the KKK, even though the KKK claims to be acting on behalf of "White" people. That's stupid. In fact, most of my civil rights heroes are the "White" people who fought against the KKK. It'd be stupid for me to lump them with the KKK, or the nazis, etc. I don't consider all Germans guilty for Hitler's crimes, or all Japanese because of Tojo.


Thanks for the clarification, Steve. I suppose it's not necessary to get into it with a fine tooth comb here and now, but the issue I see with your word choice is that "group" and "subgroup" assigns a likeness that may not actually exist between the groups. The "sub-group" here seems to be largely self-identifying by their beliefs and actions, whereas the "group" has beliefs and actions projected on them by others. But, I agree with the substance of your argument as usual.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:49 am

It's really crazy that four of the people present (and one killed) at the bar in Thousand Oaks were present at the Vegas shooting. While I am sure that will promote conspiracy theories, I can't help but feel for these people who have had to live through a mass shooting twice.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:45 am

The "sub-group" here seems to be largely self-identifying by their beliefs and actions, whereas the "group" has beliefs and actions projected on them by others


Well, to some, the whole category is a matter of self-identification. Unfortunately, that results in guilt and resentment, and the need for transference (deflection) and projection. That results in this paradox. Most of the victims of the last shootings were young White people. But, people will bring up Chicago, yet say that nobody cares about White people being shot. Okay, let's cut the race crap and say that it's American on American crime. Some would disagree, but it doesn't mean that Americans are bad. ...Um, at least we know that some of them are okay... Americans, I mean.

Anyway, the logical fallacy would arguing from the particular to the general. People do it all the time, and it can be very persuasive.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:45 am

The problem is gun owners. Only gun owners commit these shootings, and they are a self identified subgroup.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby klonk on Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:25 pm

In the Thousand Oaks shooting, the law (and police policy) created problems all by themselves.

Massad Ayoob wrote:We are told there were half a dozen off duty cops in the bar when the shooting went down, and that none were carrying guns. It would be unfair to blame them for that. Cops are universally told not to carry their off-duty guns when they might be under the influence of alcohol, and consuming alcohol is what most folks go to bars for.

The murderer shot down the unarmed security man first. He was easy to spot, and “unarmed security” is really an oxymoron in a case like this. The first armed good guy through the door, SWAT-trained hero Sergeant Ron Helus, was murdered before he could engage: the coward apparently anticipated where responding officers would enter and was probably waiting for him in ambush.

By contrast, one or more unidentifiable patrons in the crowd, had they been competently armed, would have had the advantage of surprise...


Would you like to know more? https://www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/Mas ... defenders/
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:53 pm

Well, I'm not buying the argument that having a bar full of drunk armed people is a good idea. But, I would also push back against tao's post stating that the problem is gun owners (Steve already pointed out the fallacy there). The recent figures on PTSD and drinking by our troops is really disturbing and I wish we would tackle these problems on multiple fronts: more reasonable and evenly enforced gun laws, proper support and safety nets for our troops, health care (including mental health) for all citizens and residents, and a halting of all wars that are not absolutely necessary (that's pretty much all of them).
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:21 pm

The "if someone had a gun" argument works for certain situations. It doesn't work when it comes to snipers or bombers. I think there could be an armed guard and armed patrons in every bar, and it wouldn't stop anyone who was committed to killing people. The premise is really that it would be a deterrent, and that is true for those reasonable terrorists who are not planning a suicide mission. But, ok, armed bystanders could prevent more casualties.

My problem is that if the cause of the shootings is not addressed, then the only solution is to have armed guards and armed citizens everywhere there are people. There are combat veterans everywhere, many find it hard readjusting to civilian life. Many have ptsd, but few commit mass murder. The gu who committed the last shooting seems to have had problems long before his service. And, precisely because of his service, he'd be the kind of person that most gun advocates would want to be carrying. If everyone in the club had been armed, he could still have walked in and started shooting --since he had no intention of getting out alive.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:37 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Well, I'm not buying the argument that having a bar full of drunk armed people is a good idea. But, I would also push back against tao's post stating that the problem is gun owners (Steve already pointed out the fallacy there). The recent figures on PTSD and drinking by our troops is really disturbing and I wish we would tackle these problems on multiple fronts: more reasonable and evenly enforced gun laws,
If immigration laws are not enforced by some cities / states/ why would one expect gun laws pursuant to the state to
be evenly enforced among the states ...How does that work ?


proper support and safety nets for our troops, health care (including mental health) for all citizens and residents, and a halting of all wars that are not absolutely necessary (that's pretty much all of them).


One could argue that all wars are unnecessary but are the end result when things break down.
The problem with "mental" health care is that often those that need it, do not feel they do nor agree to it.

PTSD is a problem, In my time joined in 74, many back from nam, still serving had it. We didn't call it that back then nor was it recognized as such
just knew that some guys were messed up..lots of drug use back in the day.. .

Had a co worker just out from the Marines who had it working as an "armed" courier for
a company I used to drive for "armed" transporting money from bank to back....nice guy at times but one could see
he was a ticking time bomb. He would go off rant and rave,,,took awhile to clam him down. ....lots of shit inside.

Another co worker in a tech company, Army guy,,,interesting american chinese, used to mention the "shit" he saw ect
started to reflect in his tats, which seemed to increase, and how he dressed, ect.

A problem for each, hope they are around other vets that take the time to listen
and help them find a way back...
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:49 pm

Steve James wrote:The "if someone had a gun" argument works for certain situations. It doesn't work when it comes to snipers or bombers. I think there could be an armed guard and armed patrons in every bar, and it wouldn't stop anyone who was committed to killing people. The premise is really that it would be a deterrent, and that is true for those reasonable terrorists who are not planning a suicide mission. But, ok, armed bystanders could prevent more casualties.

My problem is that if the cause of the shootings is not addressed, then the only solution is to have armed guards and armed citizens everywhere there are people. There are combat veterans everywhere, many find it hard readjusting to civilian life. Many have ptsd, but few commit mass murder. The gu who committed the last shooting seems to have had problems long before his service.

And, precisely because of his service, he'd be the kind of person that most gun advocates would want to be carrying.
How do you know what "most" gun advocates want? Gun laws are state enacted by each state according to the state.
The right to bare arms is written into the constitution. What law would you or others suggest at the federal government level be passed that would affect the problem at state level should the states follow them, which given other fed laws not enforced is not a sure thing.


If everyone in the club had been armed, he could still have walked in and started shooting --since he had no intention of getting out alive.


Or he knowing this might have selected another place to be crazy at.

Now you know his intention..amazing. .

..
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:25 pm

How do you know what "most" gun advocates want?


Do you think returning Marines are more reliable with weapons than average citizens? But, I've said it before. I have no problem with people owning guns. The problem I see is that people wanting to own guns for the wrong reasons. Yes, I trust veterans who've handled weapons to be among those carrying in the situation that klonk proposes. It's the same rationale that off duty police officers are often used to do security work and consultation. I'd rather be in a room with someone who's familiar with weapons, and I'd trust that person more when/if the shooting started.

You might have a different opinion. If there are gun proponents who think that a Marine vet shouldn't be allowed to own/carry a weapon --in any state-- then I wouldn't consider them gun proponents at all. Ymmv. Btw, as you may know, I've got two Marine son-in-laws. So, I'm not going to spend Veteran's Day looking for reasons vets shouldn't be armed.

Sure, there are reasons that a person (vet or not) should not be permitted to carry a weapon. I also think that there should be be limitations on the types of weapons available to the public. Ok, some people think there shouldn't be or shouldn't be as many or shouldn't be any new limitations. That's simply a difference of opinion. I don't think the solution to mass murder is just to arm everyone. I also think that laws will not be created to stop people like this shooter or the one at the synagogue from getting guns. I'd love to hear the ideas rather than argue about being for or against guns.

Yeah, every state has its laws. How would you do it? What would you add that would make it harder for the shooter to legally obtain a weapon? If there's no way, then are we doomed to accept them as normal occurrences?
,
Last edited by Steve James on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby windwalker on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:53 pm

Write a lot didn't answer any questions and then ask a question.

In many cases all laws were followed allowing legal ownership of the weapons. People that do these type of things would just choose another weapon to use or obtain what they want illegally which many do.

In societies where guns are outlawed or are very hard to get people do mass murders using other means.

Any law enacted tends not to affect those that can afford to own a weapon or those who do not care about the law able to obtain the weapons.

Some talk about making gun registration National database. But complain about making the same database for voter ID
feeling it might disproportionately affect those not able to obtain an ID not allowing them the right to vote.

On the other hand, many want and seek the to limit the people with IDs allowing them to own weapons the right legally to bear arms.

Weapons are designed to kill.
Those that the laws are intended to mitigate from possessing weapons are often the ones that don't obey the law.

For those able to legally do so there is no law that would prevent them from using them in a illegal way.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:14 am

You brought up gun laws and guns. I was talking about shooters and the problem of mass shootings.

Anybody note the pattern.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby windwalker on Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:25 am

Steve James wrote:You brought up gun laws and guns. I was talking about shooters and the problem of mass shootings.

Anybody note the pattern.


I do, you never seem to answer direct questions and ask others for support.
Whats up with that...
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