Shooting of the Week

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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby oragami_itto on Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:01 pm

Michael wrote:Defensive gun uses occur in the hundreds of thousands to millions of times per year in the US


No they don't. Prove it.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:49 pm

Nice catch Oragami.

More fake news.

Hundreds to thousands to millions to billions to trillions everyday...everyone needs an AK.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby BruceP on Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:57 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
Michael wrote:Defensive gun uses occur in the hundreds of thousands to millions of times per year in the US


No they don't. Prove it.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use

https://www.quora.com/How-many-defensiv ... S-per-year
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:03 pm

Yet in Canada and China the AK47 is banned and those societies are in ruins, right?
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:15 pm

I'm surprised that there weren't people armed in El Paso, and he made it out alive.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:42 am

Not even 24 hours later and we have another in Dayton, Ohio.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Michael on Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:41 pm

Dayton shooter profile. His sister was one of his victims. Evil.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/connor-betts/
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:47 pm

What a twisted individual!

Thanks for sharing.

Looks like most of his were black.

May they all rest in peace.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby everything on Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:04 pm

RIP
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby grzegorz on Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:48 pm

grzegorz wrote:What a twisted individual!

Thanks for sharing.

Looks like most of his were black.

May they all rest in peace.



Here are the names of the victims.

Authorities have now named the 9 deceased victims. In addition to Megan Betts, they are Lois Oglesby, black female, 27; Saeed Saleh, 38, black male; Logan Turner, white male, 30; Nicholas P. Cumer, white male, 25; Thomas J. McNichols, black male, 25; Beatrice N. Warren-Curtis, black female, 36; Monica E. Brickhouse, black female, 39; and Derrick R. Fudge, black male, 57. You can read tributes to the victims here. Heavy has included the victims’ race because that is how the police gave the information out in a press release and press 


Seems he has a history of threatening people.


Image
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Peacedog on Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:46 pm

Defensive gun uses in the US are at least in the range of 500,000 per year and quite possibly substantially more according to the Center for Disease Control (CDC).

We don't know the exact number for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is the Obama administration shut down one of the offices researching the issue after the CDC came to conclusions the administration didn't like.

Forbes has a link regarding at least one of the studies here:https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/04/30/that-time-the-cdc-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/#4f90e8aa299a
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:51 pm

Peacedog wrote:Defensive gun uses in the US are at least in the range of 500,000 per year and quite possibly substantially more according to the Center for Disease Control (CDC).

We don't know the exact number for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is the Obama administration shut down one of the offices researching the issue after the CDC came to conclusions the administration didn't like.

Forbes has a link regarding at least one of the studies here:https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/04/30/that-time-the-cdc-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/#4f90e8aa299a


You mean this? https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#15

Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.


3 million defensive gun uses for 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms. Makes perfect sense.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:17 pm

The El Paso shooting was in Texas where everyone can carry, no? After murdering 20, he just surrendered to police. So, the defensive use of firearms is not really an issue here. I don't think it makes sense to blame the previous administration for something that the present administration could have done for the last two years. There are violent crime stats and police reports. It seems like simple arithmetic and categorization. Granted. More people have successfully defended themselves with firearms against opponents with firearms --than people without firearms have done.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Peacedog on Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:01 am

The issue is that the vast majority of defensive firearms uses occur in the following manner...

Criminal shows up and starts engaging in criminal behavior. Armed civilian displays a firearm. Criminal ceases criminal behavior and leaves.

So, was that a violent interaction? No shots were fired. How many people would even report an incident of this kind? Not many in my experience.

The media does not mention this type of incident for a number of reasons. One, it doesn't make for a very interesting story. Two, it provides a powerful narrative supporting an armed public.


Even the statistics involving "gun crime" are highly questionable.

For example, in the US, but not in most parts of the world, we include suicides in most gun crime statistics. Is that really a murder or just what was available to a mentally disturbed person? The whole X number of child deaths per day number is high variable upon what age you consider childhood to end. One famous study included children up to the age of 25. Gang related crime starts no later than 15 years of age in many cases. Would you consider a couple of adolescent gangbangers shooting each other to be a childhood death? They would be tried as adults in most courts.

If you remove the murders from the inner city of Detroit, Baltimore, Houston, LA, New Orleans and NYC the US actually has a murder rate far below that of Western Europe. Less than 10% of the US lives in an urban inner city environment. So, does the US have murder problem or an inner city crime problem? Apparently the murder rate in downtown Baltimore exceeds the one in Honduras.

On a practical basis, I've never seen a mass killing in a place where the public was armed. The bars in Dayton and the mall in El Paso were gun free zones. All of the mass graves I've seen involved either government backed slaughter of unarmed civilians (Iraq) or socialists killing unarmed villagers (virtually everywhere). Again the people being killed in numbers were unarmed.

In Africa genocide happens quite frequently, but they use machetes there. If the locals could afford guns would it happen at all? I honestly don't know.
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Re: Shooting of the Week

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:19 am

Criminal shows up and starts engaging in criminal behavior. Armed civilian displays a firearm. Criminal ceases criminal behavior and leaves.


There's no way for you to show this is true. As you say, they're unreported.

If you remove the murders from the inner city of Detroit, Baltimore, Houston, LA, New Orleans and NYC the US actually has a murder rate far below that of Western Europe. Less than 10% of the US lives in an urban inner city environment. So, does the US have murder problem or an inner city crime problem?


1. You forgot Chicago :). There's no sense in removing murder from the calculation. We're talking about mass murder. 2: In Europe, most people don't carry guns at all. But, crime rates in the poorest parts of Europe are higher than in the richer parts. Go to Paris, Berlin, London, Glasgow, not to mention Antwerp. Crime is Biblical. Otoh, I'll bet there are more gun murders in any American city than in a similarly sized western European country. But, the point is that European countries with strict gun laws are safer than here; so, gun laws are not their problem, nor do they encourage crime.

"Urban inner city environment" means where the poorest people live. Cities are cities. Check: almost 70 percent of the country's inhabitants live in cities. Yes, the poorest areas will have the most crime, like everywhere. However, NYC has strict gun laws and a low murder rate. I live in the "murder capital" of the city; I can hear gunshots late at night. However, the fact is that the people shooting are in gangs or are fighting over drug turf. It's no different from the Chicago and NYC of the 20s and 30s --with the tenement gangs and bootleggers-- except that there are fewer murders now. And, most people don't own guns. Hey, I could get mugged tomorrow.

On a practical basis, I've never seen a mass killing in a place where the public was armed.


El Paso Texas isn't a gun free zone. There were armed men inside that mall. Of course, some were with their families and thought about getting them to safety first. The Dayton shooter, otoh, was stopped in less than one minute, but still killed 9 people. That's the practical matter. A person can always ambush a group and kill many of them wherever they gather. If he has the will to do it, there is nothing that can stop him from waiting to find a soft spot or opportunity. He can blow up the damn school bus instead of shooting up the school.

It's not the method of execution that is in question. It doesn't matter if more people in inner cities are killed by gunfire. Murder, including genocide, has been around from before the Bible. Murdering someone for his money is far from new, and there's nothing we can do about it. Murdering someone because of his identity is not the same thing. But, yes, it makes sense for the intended victims to arm themselves.

In the US, genocide doesn't happen frequently, but when it does, do you think the locals would do it if they didn't have guns?
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