BREXIT

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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:32 am

I don't think you are any of those things but l do think the Pro-Brexit people are wrong about the UK being better off, the way I see it England will probably drop being tbe economic power that it once was.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:40 am

And I respect your opinion.

Like you say time will tell. But now the time is to avoid that at all costs by working together to unite us all. Right?
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Patrick on Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:46 am

@chris, I feel you. We had a petition (comes before a real referendum) here for leaving the EU. I did sign it too, and it had nothig to do with Immigration. It is very easy to call anyone a racist, backward, nazi, a voter of the right wing party etc. It is ridicoulus.
The EU is the opposite of diversity and openness. A control mania.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby phil b on Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:50 am

I find the idea that a vote to leave was somehow a racist vote pretty offensive too. As for the economic arguments being bandied around, laughable. The UK was told the pound would be a third rate currency once the euro was introduced, that to not join the euro was tantamount to economic suicide. The economic arguments are the same, predictions, nothing more. Time will tell. One thing is certain; both remain and Europe underestimated the resentment felt in the UK.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby RobP3 on Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:06 am

windwalker wrote:
wow,,,lots of things mentioned here...
Are the below listed figures true.

Muslim Enclaves in Britain


http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5177/ ... es-britain

"under 2% no problems"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxdoztoBEuc

They say this is censored in the UK 9:48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxefcCwgKNU


So? People have to live somewhere. Immigrant communities traditionally congregate in an area at first - it is usually the poorer areas where they are placed.
No need for panic just yet though - according to the last census the UK remains about 85% "white British"

"They" always claim things are censored. I just watched that c lip so it isn't. I didn't see an attack, even though they added scary music to the bit when he was talking to local youth

And then we have this from the Gatestone Institute -

"No-go zones can be defined as Muslim-dominated neighborhoods that are de facto off limits to non-Muslims due to a number of factors, including the lawlessness, insecurity or religious intimidation that often pervades these areas."

I'll say again - I've worked and socialised in some the places mentioned. I used to live in one! They are not "no-go" areas. Just because a right-wing American think tank says so, it doesn't make it true

"The Gatestone Institute is a New York-based advocacy organization that is tied to neoconservative and other right-wing networks in the United States and Europe.[1] Chaired by John Bolton, a former Bush administration diplomat and a conservative foreign policy hardliner, Gatestone is a clearinghouse for right-wing commentaries on national security, the Middle East, and Islam, as well as a convener of high-dollar events on security and energy issues. It is an offshoot of the neoconservative Hudson Institute. The institute was founded in 2011 by Nina Rosenwald, an heiress of the Sears Roebuck empire who has been a key philanthropic backer of anti-Muslim groups and individuals in the United States."
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Dmitri on Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:27 am

middleway wrote: I am sick of the British people falling down divided, and having a paddy rather than standing, dusting ourselves of and saying 'Right, lets get this all sorted out then.'

I don't know nearly enough about it, and I feel for people upset about it or negatively affected, but I 100% sympathize with what Chris wrote in his (great IMO) "rant post".

Things change, -- change with them; any other behavior is, while understandable, also unproductive. Life is change, so... live.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:28 am

Hey Chris, I think I was very clear that I thought the primary Brexit argument was economic. What is surprised that there are those here who argue that the immigration of Muslims is or was the driving issue. It is true that you may be tarred with the same brush. That's the position many Muslims are in. It won't matter what you say or do.

Afa the economics, nobody knows what will happen.

Afa Muslim neighborhoods, Warsaw was a Jewish neighborhood, and it was a ghetto. In the US, we have these places called Chinatown, Koreatown, Little Italy, and don't forget Harlem. I know there are people who wouldn't dare walk through those places at some point. But now they're "go to" places for tourists.

Anyway, seems like cosmopolitan London voted stay. And Rob will probably go wherever he wants.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Dmitri on Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:39 am

This song has been ringing in my ears lately, feel like it's somewhat relevant, at least on the emotional level:

Here's to us, one more toast and then we'll pay the bill
Deep inside both of us can feel the autumn chill
Birds of passage, you and me, we fly instinctively
When the summer's over and the dark clouds hide the sun
Neither you nor I'm to blame when all is said and done

In our lives we have walked some strange and lonely treks
Slightly worn but dignified and not too old for sex
We're still strivin' for the sky, no taste for humble pie
Thanks for all your generous love and thanks for all the fun
Neither you nor I'm to blame when all is said and done

It's so strange when you're down and lyin' on the floor
How you rise, shake your head, get up and ask for more
Clear-headed and open-eyed with nothin' left untried
Standin' calmly at the crossroads, no desire to run
There's no hurry any more when all is said and done

Standin' calmly at the crossroads, no desire to run
There's no hurry any more when all is said and done
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:58 am

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Re: BREXIT

Postby KEND on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:29 am

Well its over, stop whining and get on with it. The campaign hit some low spots with all kinds of accusations, 'expert' opinions and misrepresentation. The Remain group were told they were a shoo in and cant believe they lost, the Leavers acted as much on emotions as facts and maybe were right to do so, they are now being called racists and responsible for the destruction of the UK. And to cap it all London wants to stay in on its own.
The truth is that the elite, the millennials, the ones profiting from a real estate boom and those who were doing well of course wanted to stay in, but there was a huge disconnect[as there is in the USA maybe Obama saw the writing on the wall] between the haves and have nots. Most of the criticism has come from the well educated, there are few journalists who have felt what it is like to feel and be powerless. Now the powerless have spoken, does talking out against uncontrolled immigration make them racists. Of course the neo Nazis and other extremists will cash in and provoke xenophobia but the average working class wage earner, who is law abiding, pays taxes and holds the country together sees their standard of living dropping and little hope for a future determined by treaties, banks and faceless bureaucrats. Many of them have neighbors who are of a different color, different religion, different culture and they got along with them so being accused of racism is hurtful and untrue.
Getting back to London, I was brought up in London and the hi rise city I now see, a bastion for the rich and powerful, is not the London I knew, a meeting place where the old and young, Brits and foreigners, could live cheaply and thrive. Like Manhattan it has little to do with the rest of the country, owned by corporations and the uber rich, the fabric being torn apart by huge building projects, the upscale stores for the trendies, with little warmth or sense of community
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Ian on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:57 am

middleway wrote:Now for the rant ...

I am sick and tired of being called a racist, bigoted, intolerant person for the past 24 hours because i voted to leave.
I am sick of people assuming my leave vote was for immigration reasons ... When in fact it was for Economic reasons.
I am sick of hearing how 'Britain' is somehow in the wrong for offering the people the chance to decide on their future.
I am sick of the news networks not reporting the actual news, instead fueling the devision in this country that has grown.
I am sick of the, apparently more educated 'IN' voters, fracturing our country more and more with scare mongery and wallowing in sorrow constantly on facebook.
I am sick of hearing all about how Germany is furious. Since when exactly is the will of the British public and democracy something for foreign nations to become angry over? Germany ... i couldnt care less how angry you are.
Mathew, and if this makes the Germany people you know feel like they cant come to the UK then i ask why you don't feel that way about the USA, Canada, Australia, Japan ... the list goes on and on.
I am sick of not seeing any thought about moving forward now the decision has been made, instead people are just posting more and more vitriol from the news networks.

Finally ... I am sick of the British people falling down divided, and having a paddy rather than standing, dusting ourselves of and saying 'Right, lets get this all sorted out then.'

Where did the strong Britain go overnight huh? A strong Britain with a rich multicultural heritage even before there was an EU? That is the Britain i would like to see rise from this vote but that will only happen if we all stop wining and moaning ... and get acting.

end rant ...


It's too easy to dismiss someone as a racist islamophobe, similar to the reductio ad Hitlerum tactic :)

Here's what one of my Leave friends wrote. I don't agree with him necessarily, but it's nice to see people engaging in civil discourse, rather than emotional sledgehammer shouting matches :)

What follows is my attempt at some reconciliation. (it’s long)
Somewhere out there, right now as you read this very post, sits the median British voter.
The median voter is someone like you. Not exactly like you of course, but similar in many ways. More similar than they are different.
They voted Conservative last year and in 2010 because they felt the economy was safer than with Miliband or Brown and Cameron seemed like he’d be a good PM. But before that they voted Labour because times were good, Labour were trendy, they liked Blair and the Conservative party was a bit too… Tory.
If Labour can find a decent leader and make decent policies while the Conservatives don’t, they’ll vote Labour in 2020 (or before...)
Last week this person voted to Leave the EU. Not because they are racist. Not because they are closed minded or xenophobic. Not because they are too thick to understand the issues. Not because they glanced at the front page of the Sun and were triggered to vote as instructed. Not because they are going to die in a few years anyway so they fancied screwing up the futures of their children and grandchildren.
They voted to Leave for two main reasons, one of which I think they were right about and one which I think they were wrong about. They aren’t always right. But neither am I; and neither are you.
Sovereignty. They like the idea that they can vote for a party, with a leader who will be PM and have absolute power and absolute responsibility for the term of the Parliament. If the government does a bad job, they’re out and their policy mistakes (real or perceived) can be completely reversed. They know that’s how it works, and they still know even after hearing and understanding weak “yeah but the EU Parliament is elected and the House of Lords isn’t!” type arguments. They like this system. They feel it works. The idea that in the EU we trade away control over domestic policy for influence over other countries did not seem like a good trade.
Immigration. They like immigrants. They feel sympathy for refugees. They think that it’s a good thing that people want to come and live and work and make a life in the UK. They empathise with the desire to make a better life for oneself and ones family. They have heard that immigration is net positive for the economy, but they aren’t convinced it’s true. They are worried about the impact on public services of rapid immigration. They worry about their access to housing, education, healthcare and transport and they think this is because more immigrants equals more demand for these things. But they don’t consider the supply. I bet you never heard anyone say “the immigrants buy all the food in the supermarket.” They know already deep down that government provided/regulated services (unlike Sainsbury’s) are unresponsive to changes in demand, and they blame the demand. They are yet to figure out that the government is worse at providing services than the market.
They might have put more weight on what they heard from the Remain campaign and David Cameron in particular if it wasn’t quite so hysterical. They might have put more weight on the “Leave is lying to you” argument if it wasn’t so obvious that Remain was simultaneously lying.
They knew that the trade arguments were being vastly overstated as they read them on the US designed, Chinese manufactured iPhone in their hand.
The conclusion is this: The median British voter is not a bad person. Their heart is in the right place, they are not stupid or bigoted, they can be reasoned with and persuaded. If you can believe that, you don’t need to be quite so appalled, disgusted, devastated, scared, heartbroken etc.
Hope not hate.
Last edited by Ian on Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:10 am

"
Steve James"]Hey Chris, I think I was very clear that I thought the primary Brexit argument was economic. What is surprised that there are those here who argue that the immigration of Muslims is or was the driving issue. It is true that you may be tarred with the same brush. That's the position many Muslims are in. It won't matter what you say or do.


I would pebbly be one of "those" I would have thought that it would be obvious that it was one of the driving issues not the main one, but one that factored in as the people saw and felt that the "culture" as being changed.


Afa Muslim neighborhoods, Warsaw was a Jewish neighborhood, and it was a ghetto. In the US, we have these places called Chinatown, Koreatown, Little Italy, and don't forget Harlem. I know there are people who wouldn't dare walk through those places at some point. But now they're "go to" places for tourists.


In SF we have the same, the difference is that they are not part of a larger movement, nor seek "IME" to change the greater culture that they find themselves in.

Anyway, seems like cosmopolitan London voted stay. And Rob will probably go wherever he wants.


It would be interesting to see the demographics of the vote. My bet would be that those that receive the most benefits from the larger society would want to stay. Those working paying for it would not.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:30 am

Many of them have neighbors who are of a different color, different religion, different culture and they got along with them so being accused of racism is hurtful and untrue.


YES! Of course it is "hurtful and untrue" and unfair; but what can you do about it except argue against racism and those who promote it?
Besides, if the feeling of hurt is authentic, then it's a good sign. But, if it's just feeling butt-hurt because someone calls you a name, it's no different than being called a paki or wog.

Anyway, most of my friends from the continent say that it was an "anti-Europe" vote, not a racist one. And, as Chris pointed out, there are non-ethnic English people who voted out. They didn't vote racially, but they fear those who did. That is also hurtful.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:33 am

So? People have to live somewhere. Immigrant communities traditionally congregate in an area at first - it is usually the poorer areas where they are placed. No need for panic just yet though - according to the last census the UK remains about 85% "white British"


Its not about "race" as you and the others keep trying to make it so...It is about ideologies.
If they where communist, or any other ism that seemed harmful to the greater whole I would point out the same things.
As it is they have a game plan, and a doctrine that is very consistent one that they follow.


"They" always claim things are censored. I just watched that c lip so it isn't. I didn't see an attack, even though they added scary music to the bit when he was talking to local youth


ok not censored good to know.
we must have watched a different clip. they did say that parts where not shown, and that they felt and were as it was filmed being boxed in.

And then we have this from the Gatestone Institute -

"No-go zones can be defined as Muslim-dominated neighborhoods that are de facto off limits to non-Muslims due to a number of factors, including the lawlessness, insecurity or religious intimidation that often pervades these areas."

I'll say again - I've worked and socialised in some the places mentioned. I used to live in one! They are not "no-go" areas. Just because a right-wing American think tank says so, it doesn't make it true


its not what they or I think its what is shown,,,What about the other people who say its true...you know like the ones in the clips shown.
Lets review, you big, a system instructor and not female, and yet you dont understand why it is that you dont find some of the same problems that others do?

"
The Gatestone Institute" is a New York-based advocacy organization that is tied to neoconservative and other right-wing networks in the United States and Europe.[1] Chaired by John Bolton, a former Bush administration diplomat and a conservative foreign policy hardliner, Gatestone is a clearinghouse for right-wing commentaries on national security, the Middle East, and Islam, as well as a convener of high-dollar events on security and energy issues. It is an offshoot of the neoconservative Hudson Institute. The institute was founded in 2011 by Nina Rosenwald, an heiress of the Sears Roebuck empire who has been a key philanthropic backer of anti-Muslim groups and individuals in the United States.


I happened to use this site as it seemed the most innocuous, the info you provided, good to know....Ok we know who backs the site....
Is the information not correct?
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:35 am

In SF we have the same, the difference is that they are not part of a larger movement, nor seek "IME" to change the greater culture that they find themselves in.


Well, there were a lot more Japanese businesses and homes in SF before the US moved them to internment camps --because they were considered threats, even though their sons joined the Army. http://www.sfmuseum.org/war/evactxt.html

Of course, they were only American citizens. So, pardon the digression.
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