BREXIT

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Michael on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:06 am

Steve James wrote:Well, whenever I have an opinion that a nationalist agrees with, I change it.

Sounds like a good policy.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:23 am

Michael wrote:
Steve James wrote:Well, whenever I have an opinion that a nationalist agrees with, I change it.

Sounds like a good policy.


I think just from reading about it most there, are starting to understand that they are losing their cultures or in some cases have already lost it....due to the massive influx of people trying to come in from other places having a very different belief system.

Their leaders as ours often do not have to deal with the polices they put in place...
Soon this will change.....this is part of the change.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:20 pm

due to the massive influx of people trying to come in from other places having a very different belief system.


Hmm, sounds like the USA --and Mexico, for that matter. Immigrants should go back to where they voluntarily came from :)

But, I think you're emphasizing your own take on it. Exiting the EU will not necessarily stop England from accepting more immigrants. Besides, the mayor of London is Muslim, so one would expect that he has the same belief system as his constituents. Moreover, they --i.e., the Londoners voted for him; and they are far more qualified to judge him than any immigrant Yank.

However, if by change you are implying support for violence against those who disagree, then that violence will undoubtedly be cannibalistic. That's what the "right" doesn't get. Americans had to kill Americans. Germans had to kill Germans (66 million, in fact). Leaving the EU is an economic issue. People come down on both sides. I have no clue, but I know that right-wing (or left-wing Nazi) violence is dangerous. If that is associated with the Brexit, then I wouldn't be surprised if the effort fails. And, of course, that's why you posted the clip that claims that the "remainers" are exploiting the political assassination of an MP. Yet, some suggest that it's an inevitable result when "the people" want something else. Yeah, right.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:08 pm

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:07 pm



WTF? I can't believe the shit that people can post on here these days. Again with the blatantly racist posts. Oh wait, you were just posting another point of view, right? ::)

Aside from the inaccuracies regarding "wellfare," this video blogger really needs some lessons in both physical geography and Western imperialism.

I've said this again and again, but I find these blatantly racist posts highly offensive.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:31 pm

good your free not to view them. instead of talking shit, why not rebut what was said in the clip...Or is it easier to label
things with no shit to back it up with...

The main take away was that part of the Bexit is part of reaction to polices enacted by their leadership..
They want more control over their culture and feel that they are being taken over from the inside and rightly so IMO ..

what happens when you find other things "highly offensive" will you then say the same things....where does it stop

Steve mentioned the mayor of london,,,,not everyone has the view point that it was a good thing....or do you prefer hearing your own echo...

maybe you do,,, ;)

No I dont think it was a good idea to elect the guy.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:41 pm

Well, I did point to what should be some obvious rebuttals, but you seemed to have missed that, thus I see no reason to hold your hand as it would likely be a waste of time. If you had posted your second paragraph with the video, it would have been helpful, but not really any less racist.

And, it stops when you stop posting highly offensive and racist drivel.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:48 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Well, I did point to what should be some obvious rebuttals, but you seemed to have missed that, thus I see no reason to hold your hand as it would likely be a waste of time. If you had posted your second paragraph with the video, it would have been helpful, but not really any less racist.

And, it stops when you stop posting highly offensive and racist drivel.


try looking in the mirror sometime,,,rebuttals :o ,posted what, where,,,, to the clip I just posted...really ;)

again with the labels,,,,news flash sunshine not working anymore...people are starting to wake up

try having a conversation that spans more then just labeling something.

and as far as clips,,,others post clips with no commentary, the ones you "agree" with that dont get labeled or any reaction.
imagine that ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:59 pm

Aside from the inaccuracies regarding "wellfare," this video blogger really needs some lessons in both physical geography and Western imperialism.


lets start with "western imperialism" sounds scary :o

what does that have to do with the clip....
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Re: BREXIT

Postby RobP3 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 12:55 am

windwalker wrote:I think just from reading about it most there, are starting to understand that they are losing their cultures or in some cases have already lost it....due to the massive influx of people trying to come in from other places having a very different belief system.

Their leaders as ours often do not have to deal with the polices they put in place...
Soon this will change.....this is part of the change.


I grew up in multi-cultural East London alongside kids who were muslim, hindu, west indian, etc, etc. I never once felt that "my culture" was under threat because of them
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Re: BREXIT

Postby RobP3 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:04 am

windwalker wrote:They want more control over their culture and feel that they are being taken over from the inside and rightly so IMO ..



Those people have always been around. In the 30s it was Mosely railing against the "Jewish swarm". In the 70s it was the National Front. Now it is BNP, Britain First etc. Rhetoric is the same, Facebook acts like a megaphone for them, but they have always been a minority

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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:28 am

I, for one, welcome the third incarnation of "RobP"!

And on this Brexit thing - not every leave supporter is a racist. But every racist is voting leave.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:31 am

If you want a decent video about this Brexit then watch this - you'll learn a lot. I did.

https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLi ... 974024537/

"One of the UK’s leading EU law experts criticizes the referendum debate’s “dishonesty on an industrial scale”, as he considers the claims and counter claims from each side.

University of Liverpool Law School’s Professor Michael Dougan has spent his career studying EU law as it relates to the UK; contributing to Parliamentary Select Committees, advising government and now helping media fact check the barrage of assertions emanating from the Remain and Leave camps, in the run up to June 23."
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Re: BREXIT

Postby KEND on Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:09 am

Well I see the discussion is warming up and heading into areas which dominate the debate in the UK. In other words it has become emotional and personal, the personalities becoming the focus rather than the issues, terms like 'racism' being thrown around like hand grenades. Both the videos were interesting and brought up interesting points. The former one focused largely on the non integration of the Muslim population. With reference to this I am presently living in central London where this doesn't seem to be a problem, but I have heard that there are places where sharia law and faith schools encourage a 'them' and 'us' attitude. The latter video makes sense economically but barely touches on the main issue that drives the EXIT argument Immigration, the prospect of large numbers of poorly educated immigrants getting preferential treatment and working for low wages.
Below are some further comments from the Spectator, which favors exit, hopefully a little less strident than the dailies.


Part of a Spectator Brexit debate between Matthew Parris and Daniel Hannan
LEAVE Daniel Hannan
For me, as for so many people, it’s a heart versus head issue. I’m emotionally drawn to Europe. I speak French and Spanish and have lived and worked all over the Continent. I’ve made many friends among the Brussels functionaries. Lots of them, naturally, are committed Euro-federalists. Yet they are also decent neighbours, loyal companions and generous hosts. I feel twinges of unease about disappointing them, especially the anglophiles. But, in the end, the head must rule the heart.
Remainers often tell us to think of our children, and I’m doing precisely that. I am thinking, not just about the EU as it is now, but about the diminished role that a surly, introverted Europe will have in their lifetime. And that makes my decision very easy.
1. ‘We need to co-operate with our neighbours,’ say Remainers, as if someone somewhere were objecting to the idea. Were the EU simply a common market, a regional bloc like Nafta or Asean, no one would have a problem with it. What makes the EU different from every other international association is that it legislates for its members. In any conflict between a parliamentary statute and the ruling of a Brussels institution, the latter takes precedence. This legal supremacy, which was not challenged during the renegotiation, is the basis for the political merger of the member states. The EU has acquired, one by one, the attributes and trappings of nationhood: a president and a foreign minister, citizenship and a passport, treaty-making powers, a criminal justice system, a written constitution, a flag and a national anthem. It is these things that Leavers object to, not the commerce and co-operation that we would continue to enjoy, as every neighbouring country does.
2. The EU is not a free-trade area; it is a customs union. The difference may seem technical, but it goes to the heart of the decision we face. Free-trade areas remove barriers between members and, economists agree, tend to make participants wealthier. Customs unions, by contrast, erect a common tariff wall around their members, who surrender the right to strike individual trade deals. From the start, the EEC prioritised politics over economics and opted for a customs union as the means to a political union.
Britain is one of only two of 28 member states that sell more to the rest of the world than to the EU. We have always been especially badly penalised by the EU’s Common External Tariff. Unlike Switzerland, which enjoys free trade with the EU at the same time as striking agreements with China and other growing economies, we must contract out our trade policy to a European commissioner — at present, as it happens, a former sociology lecturer from Sweden.
We have (because the EU has) no trade agreements with China, India or most other Commonwealth countries. EU–Australia talks are being held up by a dispute over Italian tomatoes. Even the EU-Canada deal, which everyone thought was agreed, now risks being vetoed by Romania because of an unrelated row about visas for Romanians wishing to enter Canada. It’s a costly failure. In 2006, the EU was taking 55 per cent of our exports; last year, it was down to 45 per cent. What will it be in 2030 — or 2050?
3. We can hardly accuse Eurocrats of being shy about their plans. The Five Presidents’ Report sets out a plan for the amalgamation of fiscal and economic policies — a process that can only take place among the 28 states as a whole, since there is no legal mechanism for eurozone-only integration. The Belgian commissioner Marianne Thyssen has a plan for what she calls ‘social union’ — i.e. harmonisation of welfare systems. Jean-Claude Juncker wants a European army, which the Commission describes as ‘a strategic necessity’. These are not the musings of outlandish federalist think tanks: they are formal policy statements by the people who run Brussels
The EU, in short, is responding to the euro and migration crises in the way it responds to everything: with deeper integration. Because Britain kept its currency and its passport checks, we have other options.
4. When Britain joined in 1973, the states that now make up the EU accounted for 36 per cent of the world economy. Last year, it was 17 per cent. Obviously, developing economies grow faster than advanced ones, but the EU has also been comprehensively outperformed by the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It’s not hard to see why: Brussels is more concerned with keeping the euro together as a means to political integration than in the welfare of the poor wretches who have to use it.
Back in the 1970s, western Europe seemed more modern and prosperous than Britain. Does it seem that way now? In an age of Skype and cheap flights, why should we allow accident of geography to trump ties of language and law, custom and kinship? Why tie ourselves to the world’s slowest-growing continent?
5. ‘Ooh, so you want us to be like Switzerland or Norway, do you?’ say Remainers. No: we can get a better deal than either. We are 65 million people to Switzerland’s eight million and Norway’s five million; on the day we left, we’d become the EU’s single biggest export market.
Still, it’s worth noting that Norway and Switzerland come first and second in the Legatum Prosperity Index and that their voters oppose EU membership by, respectively, 79 per cent and 82 per cent. They trade freely with the EU, while being exempt from (in Norway’s case) most or (in Switzerland’s) all its legal acts. They do pay Brussels, but less than we do per capita — far less, in Switzerland’s case. And, as well as the freedom to sign trade deals with overseas markets (they signed one with the Philippines last month, after just ten months of talks), they are self-governing democracies. The fact that they all have their own particular deals with Brussels shows how silly it is to expect us precisely to mimic someone else’s: we’d get our own deal, tailored to our own conditions. And thrive with a trade-based relationship with the EU.
6. A Remain vote will be seen in Brussels as a capitulation. Look at it from the point of view of a Euro-federalist. Britain would have demanded trivial reforms, failed to secure even those, and then voted to stay in on unchanged terms. After decades of growling and snarling, the bulldog would have rolled over and whimpered.
A number of plans have been postponed in Brussels pending our vote: the ban on powerful electrical appliances; licensing rules that will decimate London’s art market; the Ports Services Directive, which was opposed by every commercial port in Britain, every trade union and (for what it’s worth) every British MEP. But that secured a majority anyway, only to be deferred at the last moment until after our referendum.
But that’s just the start. With the possibility of Brexit off the table, there will be a renewed push to integration, on everything from migrant quotas to a higher EU budget.
There are some British voters who are happy with the idea of a federal Europe. Fair enough: if you’re in that category, vote Remain. But don’t imagine that you can cast a qualified Remain vote: your ballot will be taken in Brussels as a mandate for full-on integration. As I say, if you like that idea, fine. But, please, don’t be bullied out of following your conscience. We’re the fifth largest economy in the world, the second disseminator of soft power, one of five permanent seat-holders on the UN Security Council. We export tea to China, naan bread to India, kayaks to the Inuit. We have created more jobs in the past five years than the other 27 states put together. How much bigger do we have to be, for heaven’s sake, before we can prosper under our own laws?

STAY
MATTHEW PARRIS RESPONDS
If you believe that the EU is a vast conspiracy to turn itself into a federal superstate, then you will hear in every passing breeze the whisper of an advancing imperium. I don’t. And I simply don’t share the Leave side’s confidence that there is a world outside waiting to strike trading deals with Britain more generous than they’ve accorded the EU. As for the social union and the new army, all kinds of individuals within the EU have all kinds of hopes and dreams. It is not true that these are ‘formal policy statements by the people who run Brussels’. They are getting nowhere with most of this, and could not anyway force us to join in.
On trade, I’m no economist, but I think the remark ‘the EU’s economy is in relative collapse’ is explained by the remark that ‘the Chinese and Indian economies have doubled in size’. It is true that North America is doing better, but not much. It’s little help going on about New Zealand (a tiny economy) and Australia (whose wealth is hugely dependent on mining). The old (white) Commonwealth has a place in all our hearts, I think, but the head counsels caution. The wealth of Norway and Switzerland may have something to do with (in one case) vast reserves of oil, and, in the other, a borderline-gangster banking system.
As for trading with the world, nobody is stopping us exporting kayaks to the Inuit. Britain’s jobs expansion has been achieved from inside the EU. And as for following our ‘consciences’, please don’t appropriate such language to your own side alone. There are consciences on both sides.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:13 am

The former one focused largely on the non integration of the Muslim population. With reference to this I am presently living in central London where this doesn't seem to be a problem, but I have heard that there are places where sharia law and faith schools encourage a 'them' and 'us' attitude. The latter video makes sense economically but barely touches on the main issue that drives the EXIT argument Immigration, the prospect of large numbers of poorly educated immigrants getting preferential treatment and working for low wages.


Some do throw labels out with out much commentary I guess somehow it makes their ideas more "what ever"

What I noted along with the commentary was that it also seems to brake down along age groups with the older population
wanting to leave.

What makes the EU different from every other international association is that it legislates for its members. In any conflict between a parliamentary statute and the ruling of a Brussels institution, the latter takes precedence.

This legal supremacy, which was not challenged during the renegotiation, is the basis for the political merger of the member states. The EU has acquired, one by one, the attributes and trappings of nationhood: a president and a foreign minister, citizenship and a passport, treaty-making powers, a criminal justice system, a written constitution, a flag and a national anthem. It is these things that Leavers object to, not the commerce and co-operation that we would continue to enjoy, as every neighbouring country does.

This is what I meant by culture and self determination.
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