BREXIT

Rum, beer, women, movies, nice websites, gaming, etc., without interrupting the flow of martial threads.

Re: BREXIT

Postby Trick on Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:50 pm

maybe 1984 is an blueprint for what to come. after brexit 'Airstrip one' will be part of Oceania
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 2350
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:55 am

Do you think the earth is flat too?


Awwwwwww. So what have we had now, I'm a Nazi & a conspiracy theorist. Really racking em up! I should definitely be up for a badge or something.

Conspiracies? You seem to be able to hold a belief that the "government are full of shit ... except the EU, those guys are saints, they are the bestest rich white folks ever!!" at the same time? Isnt that slightly conspiratorial??

How about the fact that you are also convinced that the UK government would have something to gain by deporting hundreds of thousands of contributing EU citizens. That the time, cost, effort, manpower, and loss to the economy that would cause, is somehow on the cards ... because "BREXIT BAD! GOVERNMENT BAD! CHRIS BAAAADDDDD (/nazi/consipracy theorist ... insert appropriate ad hominim here)"

And I am the conspiracy theorist ...

(PS - still not replying for your benefit. But i think we are now painting a nice little picture on the logical fallacies and echo chamber thinking of the average ... in your case below average .... 'Remoaner')
Last edited by middleway on Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:19 am

jimmy wrote:
jimmy wrote:


Stirring stuff. 8-)
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:22 am

middleway wrote:
Do you think the earth is flat too?


Awwwwwww. So what have we had now, I'm a Nazi & a conspiracy theorist. Really racking em up! I should definitely be up for a badge or something.

Conspiracies? You seem to be able to hold a belief that the "government are full of shit ... except the EU, those guys are saints, they are the bestest rich white folks ever!!" at the same time? Isnt that slightly conspiratorial??

How about the fact that you are also convinced that the UK government would have something to gain by deporting hundreds of thousands of contributing EU citizens. That the time, cost, effort, manpower, and loss to the economy that would cause, is somehow on the cards ... because "BREXIT BAD! GOVERNMENT BAD! CHRIS BAAAADDDDD (/nazi/consipracy theorist ... insert appropriate ad hominim here)"

And I am the conspiracy theorist ...

(PS - still not replying for your benefit. But i think we are now painting a nice little picture on the logical fallacies and echo chamber thinking of the average ... in your case below average .... 'Remoaner')


Ok, I'm going to take your hysterical ranting as a "yes."

So how does gravity work on your flat earth?
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11843
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:46 am

Ok, I'm going to take your hysterical ranting as a "yes."


Awwwwwwwwwwww. :'( :'( :'( ;D

Honestly i am impressed you managed to type that with your fingers in the your ears and your head in the sand. Guess you have one talent after all! Suppose it doesn't matter when you generally talk out of your ass. HA! Chris made a funny too.
Last edited by middleway on Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:52 am

Brexit memes are hitting the political humor thread.

I find it interesting that Marie LePenn is trying to say that the yellow vests protests are anti-EU. For me being outside of Europe it seems that the EU is seen as the establishment. Obviously there is legitimate reason for that but on the other hand it seems like an easy scapegoat for all the world's problems.

I say this because I know very leftist people who think this way. They blame everything on the system and although they may be right about some things it seems that they want to throw out the whole system instead of trying to think of ways to fix it.
Last edited by grzegorz on Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
User avatar
grzegorz
Wuji
 
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 pm
Location: The laughing stock of the world!

Re: BREXIT

Postby Giles on Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:36 pm

Regarding the EU:

The EU has got quite a few things wrong with it at the levels ranging from details up to quite serious. It is certainly in need of reform in several ways. It’s a big and easy target to hit if you want to criticise it, and much of the criticism – from different political quarters – is justified. Nonetheless, in my understanding it has done a lot of good not only in economic terms but (more often than not) also in terms of promoting and protecting democracy, political and personal freedom (European style, not USA style) and freedom of movement and of ensuring the separation of powers and the rule of law (Treaty of Lisbon). These last issues in particular tend to be taken for granted here nowadays, but that’s because the EU has fostered and enforced them so well! Just look at current trends in Poland and Hungary for example, and there are plenty of populist parties in the ‘west of Europe’ too who would be happy to take things the same way.

Other important benefits include environmental protection (although not enough), consumer protection, promotion of cultural exchange etc. etc. The EU also has a freely elected parliament. Realise that one of the worst wars in history, also taking place almost all over Europe, is still within living memory. If the EU goes, then we’re going to need something else to hold the countries of Europe together in a relatively benign (!!!) way, otherwise with the rise in nationalism and above all populism in many countries, in an increasingly ‘post-fact’ political and cultural environment, we in Europe could find ourselves in deep shit all over again. So I believe that as a bottom line, the EU is certainly more good than bad. Although, once again, it sure needs some reform.
Last edited by Giles on Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 514
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: BREXIT

Postby Peacedog on Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:15 pm

Giles,

For that to happen the European countries would need to do something about their collapsing demographics and massively increase military spending first. Quite frankly, none of the European states will have enough fighting age men in 20 years to pull off a war with a member state if something doesn't change. Additionally, I doubt any of them could leverage the loans needed to have an actual military buildup of substance even if they wanted to.

Plus, the national level defense contractors in Europe outside of a few companies in the UK and France are pretty far behind cutting edge. You would end up with a lot of gen 3+, gen 4 and maybe some gen 4+ tech. Anyone backed by the US would spank the opposing side.

European member states individually are, for the most part, too small and poorly financed to generated gen 5 military tech, or higher, on their own. That by itself decreases the risk of inter-state conflict. They would have to get it from the US, potentially to a very small degree the Russians (although they have largely given up on this kind of research at this point) or work with other member states to develop it.

Even in the US, the F-35 is rumored to be the last manned fighter that will enter production. My guess is that if someone finally ignores the enviro league you will end up with nuclear propulsion systems, but that will take the Chinese, and/or Russians, doing something about their massive financial and demographic problems first. The West at the present point seems to be unwilling to take on that political battle.

Middleway,

Welcome to the club. People on this board have been calling me a Nazi, and my favorite "warmonger", for quite some time.

Best,

Peacedog
Peacedog
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1605
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 5:22 am
Location: Standing right next to your girl....

Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:35 pm

Hey! On the Russians thread I was called a nazi.

I can understand your perspective Peacedog but I think everything you are saying only backs the argument for an EU. In Yugoslavia the military wasn't on a massive scale and look at the horror it caused there.

The fact is both Northern Ireland and Ireland as well as the former Yugoslavian countries are at peace with each other. This doesn't mean it's a perfect situation but Giles is correct, I believe, in that both of those conflicts probably would not have reached the level of voilence if the EU had been around before those conflicts started. The fact is money talks.

As to war, as a vet, I don't believe that a military response leads to a solution. Just take a look at our current war in Afghanistan. We have been there for almost 2 decades and the Taliban is stronger than ever.

Or we can see an even better example in Central America where Reagan decimated those countries in hopes of bringing peace through firepower and see how that worked out for them. The US broke Guatamala, Nicaragua and El Salvador and they are still broken. Yet Costa Rica, without a military, is perfectly at peace and the Switzerland of Latin America with many Americans retiring there. I am not saying no military is the answer but obviously what the US is doing isn't working.

As to shrinking European demographics that is exactly why immigration is necessary or in the case of Poland giving families with more than 1 child money. Poland also swung to the far right yet unlike here that government is actually providing money and opportunities for the common man by giving money to large families who are having more kids and spending that money in Poland creating more jobs and better economy. Here all the money goes to the top and rarely trickles down.
Last edited by grzegorz on Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
User avatar
grzegorz
Wuji
 
Posts: 6151
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 pm
Location: The laughing stock of the world!

Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:42 am

Hey! On the Russians thread I was called a nazi.

Welcome to the club. People on this board have been calling me a Nazi, and my favorite "warmonger", for quite some time.


well arnt we the illustrious group! haha ;D

The EU has got quite a few things wrong with it at the levels ranging from details up to quite serious. It is certainly in need of reform in several ways. It’s a big and easy target to hit if you want to criticise it, and much of the criticism – from different political quarters – is justified. Nonetheless, in my understanding it has done a lot of good not only in economic terms but (more often than not) also in terms of promoting and protecting democracy, political and personal freedom (European style, not USA style) and freedom of movement and of ensuring the separation of powers and the rule of law (Treaty of Lisbon). These last issues in particular tend to be taken for granted here nowadays, but that’s because the EU has fostered and enforced them so well! Just look at current trends in Poland and Hungary for example, and there are plenty of populist parties in the ‘west of Europe’ too who would be happy to take things the same way.

Other important benefits include environmental protection (although not enough), consumer protection, promotion of cultural exchange etc. etc. The EU also has a freely elected parliament. Realise that one of the worst wars in history, also taking place almost all over Europe, is still within living memory. If the EU goes, then we’re going to need something else to hold the countries of Europe together in a relatively benign (!!!) way, otherwise with the rise in nationalism and above all populism in many countries, in an increasingly ‘post-fact’ political and cultural environment, we in Europe could find ourselves in deep shit all over again. So I believe that as a bottom line, the EU is certainly more good than bad. Although, once again, it sure needs some reform.


hi Giles,

Thanks for the informed post. I would take issue with much of it, outlining below my reasons, but I appreciate your well thought out viewpoint.

Economic benefits.
There is no doubt that the original role of the EU, to make trade within Europe easier was realized. Had the EU remained in this specific role, I would have been a big fan!

The free movement of people was linked to this idea, as was the single currency and all of these things were a success in my opinion. But it is in these ideas that the seeds of where the EU went wrong can be found.
Over time, as the EUs charter expanded the pressure on its economics was increased and the errors started to become visible.
The policies in place for economic prosperity, specifically the single currency and the amount of money certain member states have to pay into the organisation, have resulted in entire countries economies failing. Notably, we have seen Greece and Ireland require assistance because of the debt they have owed to the EU. These countries are not out of the water yet. Looking into the crisis in Greece is enlightening and quite shocking. In this regard the methodology of the EU is responsible for some major economic issues and major suffering for millions of real EU citizens.

But further when we look outside of the EU we start to see the problems with the concept of preferential internal trade. The Member states inside the EU are largely first world countries. When we begin to look at the impact in the third world we see the some of the knock on problems that this trade union has created. Often it is the poorest people in the world are the most effected by the EUs economic ideals.

The most notable and prominent issue is regarding the Common Agricultural Policy. This policy which accounts for nearly 50% of the EUs budget keeps the cost of agricultural goods inside the EU artificially low. This means that producers in developing countries either cannot compete, or get virtually nothing for their goods once import is taken into account.
This has an impact on the entire world.

Research cited by the Overseas Development Institute (ODI) shows that African and Latin American countries are particularly affected by the CAP. A study last year from the University of Lausanne argued that the world as a whole would gain from the removal of the "most distortive CAP instruments, with Europe being the main beneficiary".
"The reallocation of resources within the economies across the world and corresponding terms of trade effects would increase world economic GDP and welfare by nearly €33bn – the European border protection (various import duties) elimination being the key contributing element," said the study


Humanitarianism
Considering the above, we can already say that from a humanitarian standpoint, the EU’s economic policies are causing suffering for a large amount of people in the the world outside of the EU.

But further, when it comes to the humanitarian work of the EU, it is important to realize that Europe on the whole had advanced humanitarian positions post WW2 and nations across the world decided to commit to the idea of peace with the formation of the UN. It is a slightly disingenuous argument to lay the humanitarian policies present in Europe, at the feet of the EU themselves. These policies are generally based on the positions of the EUs major players like the UK and Germany and larger the UN. The beginnings of them were evident even before the EU moved into this area. Further, we are talking about 'human rights' advances in predominantly 1st world countries who already lead the way in freedom and human rights. The real focus should be on raising the standards of those in developing nations.

One of the fears of the Remainers is that human rights policies will be lost when we leave the EU. However, the UK is already a leading light in humanitarian principles and policies and there would be no economic, humanitarian or political reason to reverse this.

Regarding democracy,

This is perhaps the most contentious argument from both sides. In my experience most people don't know what powers the EU has and what powers member states retain. I have investigated this thoroughly however and was one of the primary motivators for me to vote to leave.

Firstly, lets deal with the apparently democratic part of the EU. MEPs can be voted into their positions by citizens of their member states, but these elections are all but silent in most instances. There is no coverage, no budget for the election race, and very little information afforded the populace of the EU on what the MEP will be doing when elected. But it is important to realise that the EU Commission and the EU Courts are not democratically elected. They are also not transparent with EU citizens on the creation and enactment of law within the EU maintaining a 'closed door' policy on many of the developments of EU's Laws and policies.

As such the main democratic problem lays with the Law & policy makers of the EU. EU Law supersedes UK law in all but 3 areas. 1) the Schengen agreement 2) the Single currency 3) Member state applications to join the EU, which the UK had power of Veto. When Graham questioned this at the time of the vote (by posting a radio host grilling some poor member of the public) I provided the facts from the EU themselves on their own website that confirms this. In all other laws, EU law superseded British law. Now, remainers say that we 'agree with 90% of policies the EU enacts'. This may well be the case, but the point is we have no choice for the other 10%.

This is present in order to maintain trade with the EU, all member states have to be on the same page. It is an understandable position. But this ultimately means that the vote of the British people to elect their governance, a core tenant of our society and the system to produce the most freedom, human rights, and good in the world, is null and void. This is an unavoidable conclusion for someone looking at the situation objectively.

Rise of nationalism, right wing groups and popularism.

Far from keeping these idiots in check, unfortunately I lay this largely at the feet of the EU, their policies and the problems that they cause internally in member states.

Parties have sprung up across the continent, like UKIP here in the UK, that have gained massive ground using the express position of battling the EU as an organisation. We have seen close run calls in the UK, France, Poland, Italy, Greece ... where seemingly extreme political parties have gained a strong footing in the populace. I am convinced that this would not be possible if nations had remained individual or the EU had stuck to its original charter and stayed squarely in the lane of trade.

I freely admit that most of what these idiotic parties say is lies or extreme stretches of the truth. But we need to ask ourselves why their viewpoint resonates with, sometimes, huge proportions of the population.
The poorest people in these countries are seeing and feeling the effect of the EU on their family and friends. 10 years ago, these parties were essentially non existent and now they have massive followings. The question that pro-EU people need to ask themselves is 'Why?' What is it that these real people are feeling about the EU that is making them come out in droves.

I think I must caveat this by saying that, although I voted leave, I personally do not support the Position of parties like UKIP, and share very few of their views of course.

On security and defense.

Luckily, post world wars, we had the United Nations as an organisation to keep War at bay across Europe. I do not believe the EU should be present as well as the UN for this purpose, and dont think that the EU can bring anything at all to the table when it comes to european defense and security, that the UN and NATO dont already bring.

Peacedog outlines a very clear argument for the unlikely event of inter European war again.

On Environmental protection

Once again, there are processes in place outside the EU that individual nations subscribe too. I would argue that meetings like G8 are far more important and impactful for the Environment than the EU. Note that Germany and the UK are represented there individually and environmental policies are often a key aspect of the talks.

Further the common agricultural policy mentioned above is actually largely responsible for loss of biodiversity across Europe and the larger world. Addressing serious issues like this could be a brilliant first step the EU are missing when it comes to the environment.

On scientific collaboration
The best example of how the EU is not needed for scientific collaboration is CERN. The most celebrated scientific collaboration on the planet is not reliant on the EU at all. 22 individual countries pay into this project every year and include non EU members / associate members like Israel, India, Pakistan and Turkey. It is a true testament to what can be achieved when individual nations collaborate.

In general, i think that, had the EU stuck to being a trade organisation it could have been a good thing for Europe and the world. As it stands, the foray into law, political power, migration, currency, defence, etc ... results in a net negative impact on the world.

Many thanks.
Chris.
Last edited by middleway on Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:53 am, edited 4 times in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:04 am

I say this because I know very leftist people who think this way. They blame everything on the system and although they may be right about some things it seems that they want to throw out the whole system instead of trying to think of ways to fix it.


This is a very interesting observation as Left leaning politics tends to preference larger degrees of government control and more 'systems' in place.

I have heard that part of the Yellow Jacket's reasons for protesting is related to economic strife. This is partially caused in part by a belief that payments to the EU are causing taxation rises.

How true this actually is though, i am not sure. I think the majority of the reason for the revolt is because of Macrons policies.

It is extremely hard to get real information on these protests from any news sources however. Either the protests are not covered at all, as is the case normally on the BBC etc, or they are used by Right wing groups to justify their own positions.

The facts are hard to parse out. So i think its impossible for us to look at anything objectively regarding the Yellow Jackets.
Last edited by middleway on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:43 am

1. What about the effects of austerity as the reason for people to vote to leave and blame the EU? Austerity has been inflicted on the UK by Conservative-lead coalitions or governments since 2010. I don't think you can blame the EU for Conservative austerity. Austerity was a political choice.

2. I would also like you to name me one "EU law" that you're looking forward to not having to abide by once we leave and the reasons why that's so important that we have to (potentially*) trash our economy to avoid it.

(* You've already mentioned how Brexit is personally affecting your and your wife's money-earning potential, so let's not get dragged down into a debate about whether or not Brexit is damaging the economy - you've already admitted it is. You also say above that it's the sovereignty issue that is your main reason for wanting to leave.)
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11843
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:47 am

My response was to Giles. Not you ... mr ego. Love how you are trotting out the classics and Straw Mans ... your argumentation skills are really coming along . I will await the insults once I have responded.

So in allllllll that post the only thing you can come back with is the below... holy shit. lol ::)

1. What about the effects of austerity as the reason for people to vote to leave and blame the EU? Austerity has been inflicted on the UK by Conservative-lead coalitions or governments since 2010. I don't think you can blame the EU for Conservative austerity. Austerity was a political choice.


Straw man and changing the discussion.

I dont blame Austerity on the EU. The EU have no interest in intervening in that process. But they could, if they wanted too - and that is the issue. You are changing the goal posts to talk about something unrelated to the EU. If Austerity negatively affected the EU they could intervene and stop it.

I do not say that the EU rule the UK as a government would, I say that they have the power to override our laws and policies. Which they do. I'm not sure there are any other ways to say it. ... I could draw a picture? A meme?

2. I would also like you to name me one "EU law" that you're looking forward to not having to abide by once we leave and the reasons why that's so important that we have to (potentially*) trash our economy to avoid it.


Straw man. I have not stated that there are EU laws i even disagree with, you are making that leap. I have stated that we should be in control of our law. Which we should. If you don't understand WHY we should be in control of our own law, then you need to get some history experts on your podcast who know the consequences of such things.

“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions."


Let me save you the reply "So you don't have any laws you disagree with then ... is it really worth it?' .... Yes. Yes it is.

(* You've already mentioned how Brexit is personally affecting your and your wife's money-earning potential, so let's not get dragged down into a debate about whether or not Brexit is damaging the economy - you've already admitted it is. You also say above that it's the sovereignty issue that is your main reason for wanting to leave.)


Ok so, first all of the things in my past posts are 'reasons for leaving'. I know it might be hard for your brain, but my reasons are more nuanced than the 'sovereignty issue', that is ONE of my primary concerns yes, but only one.

Secondly, My viewpoint is largely not about me. This is where you and I differ. I am willing to suffer personally for larger moral ideals i hold dear. Temporary volatility of the pound is a price i am happy to pay.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke.

AGAIN you end up making leaps in logic and putting words in my mouth to make you feel better ... I have not stated that our economy hasn't been negatively impacted by the leave process. YOU are making that leap.

But i would still prefer to be where we are now and where we will be post Brexit ... than where the EU left Greece. But its ok ... they are over there ... lets not worry about them. EU citizens here though!!!! Ohhhhh the travesty! ::)

The effect on my wifes business is due to volatility of the pound against the dollar as she trades with China. The pound is affected, not because we are leaving the EU, (as evidenced when it bounced back to previous levels post vote). It is volatile but because of uncertainty caused by the conservative government and the EU themselves. Again, that may be hard for you to understand.

I are not getting dragged into any debate with you, about the economy or otherwise. You dont know what you are talking about. Replying is simply a bit more fun for me.

For reference ... once again... my responses here are for the others. To make clear my positions. Not for you old boy.

Now we await the well thought out insult. 8-)
Last edited by middleway on Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:53 am

I'm just sorry you won't answer my questions. I thought they were pretty good questions that strike to the heart of the matter, and need answering by somebody on the Leave side.
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11843
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:02 am

Actually you kind of did answer my questions at the same time as refusing to do so....

Now I just genuinely feel sorry for you. I know you don't care, but that's how I feel for you.

I hope you find some peace.
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 11843
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Off the Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest