BREXIT

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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:20 am

"[...] when the deadline [to apply for Settled Status] expires in June 2021, several hundred thousand people who lawfully live in the UK may become illegal immigrants overnight. Could Britain be heading for a new Windrush moment?" ask Chris Morris

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002c ... L4Ch45tLXw


Evidence for that? or are you simply talking complete shit again? What EU citizen who wants to live here is NOT going to apply for settled status?

The government has promised it has no plans to simply “turf out” EU citizens, regardless of the outcome of negotiations. The main provisions of European Union law on freedom of movement of people have been fully incorporated into UK law by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (EUWA) and recent amendments to the Immigration Rules giving effect to the planned future status of EU27 citizens in the UK. So, the right of EEA citizens (including those from non-EU countries, like Norway, and from Switzerland) to live and work here – and the legality of employers continuing to employ them, hospitals and schools continuing to treat and educate them, and so on – would broadly continue unless and until the UK government or Parliament changes the rules. Similarly, there is no reason why border arrangements and visa requirements would change immediately.


So the provisions of European law is already incorporated into UK law and was done so in 2018. Eu citizens will NOT become 'illegal immigrants'. They already have a special status in Law (which is not a good thing for everyone else), that will continue after the 2021 deadline unless the UK government change it, which they have no reason to do at all.

So Again ... horseshit.
Last edited by middleway on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:25 am

We could keep this going all day .. you post a news article ... i post the legislation ... you post a cartoon ... but whats the point. As grzegorz rightfully says.

When someone disagrees with me I listen and learn and find that often times it is impossible to use an intelligent conversation to change someone's opinion because most political opinions are based on emotions and not an intellectual argument therefore it's pretty much pointless.


Amen.
Last edited by middleway on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:31 am

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

If this thread is an example of how you sew things back together with love, then I'd really appreciate it if you could just stop? Thanks. I'm all loved up. Your work is done.
Last edited by GrahamB on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:40 am

OMG - you got me - the perfect rebuttal.

If this thread is an example of how you sew things back together with love, then I'd really appreciate it if you could just stop? Thanks. I'm all loved up. Your work is done.


Aww.
Last edited by middleway on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:11 am

Settled status:

For anybody on this board who hasn't disappeared down a Brexit rabbit hole and just believes everything the government tells them and say thing like "Eu citizens will NOT become 'illegal immigrants'."

(because why would they ile?? I mean, it's not like they've been caught doing it time and time again...)

You might be interested in some actual first-hand accounts from people who have to apply for settled status, not those who don't have to.



"So here's some thoughts on settled status (sorry to keep on about it. I'm about to just shut myself off from news for a few weeks.)

With each system you have false positives and false negatives. A very generous system of settled status would allow perhaps a few people the status who are not entitled (e.g., serious criminals, because yes there's a criminality check and the EU allowed this, and people not resident here). But on the plus side, it would help a lot of vulnerable people who might fall through and become statusless and illegal otherwise. A restrictive system on the other hand would not have false positives, but it would create a lot of false negatives - people entitled to settled status who don't get it.

This is what's happening now. Lots of people get pre-settled status. I'm on private FB groups and twitter feeds where I see ppl who worked non-stop in the UK for 16+ years etc get pre-settled status, which is more restrictive, does not automatically convert into settled status etc. Why don't these people get settled status? Because the application system is too restrictive. Its default is pre-settled status.

The UK *knows* this. They know many people will forget to apply from pre-settled status to settled status. Those people will become illegal. It's a tragedy waiting to happen. If they are serious about making acceptance the default, why make the system so onerous?

Today I saw someone in desperation, lives with her boyfriend for many years, no NI number, nothing in her name (no bills, rental contracts), how on Earth is she going to even get settled status?

I was waiting to see what they would do. When they said we are going to make acceptance the default, and we'll make sure you can stay, you're welcome etc. I knew they were lying. I mean, as we speak, they're deporting Windrush-generation citizens!"
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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:14 am

Good to see Thom Yorke agrees. I bloody love Radiohead.

"Nobody voted for you to bring into question the lives of millions of Europeans as a bargaining tool, causing immense distress and suffering, an action worthy of the early days of the Third Reich.”

“Nobody voted for you to drive this red bus over a cliff with the passengers screaming in the back. None of this has been an expression of the democracy you have been claiming to uphold. Fear is not a weapon to be used by a UK Prime Minister in the 21st Century. Stop the bus… now.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 69611.html
Last edited by GrahamB on Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:29 am

GrahamB wrote:Good to see Thom Yorke agrees. I bloody love Radiohead.

Yer growin on me GrahamE :)

https://youtu.be/Qxrax9iYOBo
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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:33 am

There's a lot of karma coming for somebody...

Karma police
Arrest this man
He talks in maths
He buzzes like a fridge
He's like a detuned radio

While having drinks with Tibor Kalman one night, he told me, “When you make something no one hates, no one fucking loves it.” Bollocks to Brexit.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:10 pm

middleway wrote:Funnily enough i feel exactly the same. The problem i often encounter now however is that so few people occupy the center, preferring to be much more polarized. The obvious upshot of that is that to the Right Wingers i seem like a lefty, and to the lefties i seem like a right winger lol. When i find a fellow centrist its like a gold nugget! haha.

Time to use my time for more productive things! :) Thanks for the reminder.


I'm glad I'm not alone. I think all this polarization stems from the constant loop of outrage on social media.

Basically someone has figured out that emotional arguments carry more weight than intellectual ones. My country is probably the worst for this where the news used to be of a bunch of stories and headlines yet now its people talking at length and debating a usually one insignificant story and getting people outraged on all sides.

For example, here no one is discussing Trump and Putin pulling out of the IMF Missle Treaty instead people are discussing some viral video trending on Twitter.
Last edited by grzegorz on Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:28 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby MistyMonkeyMethod on Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:56 pm

“The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born. Now is a time of monsters.” Gramsci
“Make everything in you an ear, each atom of your being, and you will hear at every moment what the Source is whispering to you, just to you and for you, without any need for my words or anyone else’s.”— Rumi
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Trick on Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:07 am

It’s the transition period between the ages. We’re leaving Pices to enter Aquarius, both are watery so the transition should not be too bumpy, just some online quarrels……and maybe a little rioting in the streets
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:09 am

Settled status:

For anybody on this board who hasn't disappeared down a Brexit rabbit hole and just believes everything the government tells them and say thing like "Eu citizens will NOT become 'illegal immigrants'."

(because why would they ile?? I mean, it's not like they've been caught doing it time and time again...)


Sigh ... This is getting time consuming ::) ... but just for fun ... lets take a look at this little lot.

Firstyly, let me get this straight. You don’t believe the UK government .. I guess that’s fair. Politicians are generally untrustworthy … but you DO believe the EU? Do you see the congnative dissonance there?

You might be interested in some actual first-hand accounts from people who have to apply for settled status, not those who don't have to.


Sure … lets look at these “real” people you/ some website has dug up.


"This is what's happening now. Lots of people get pre-settled status. I'm on private FB groups and twitter feeds where I see ppl who worked non-stop in the UK for 16+ years etc get pre-settled status, which is more restrictive, does not automatically convert into settled status etc. Why don't these people get settled status? Because the application system is too restrictive. Its default is pre-settled status.


So lets look at what Pre-settled status is (Because I don’t think you or this person knows)

This is Pre Settled status :
“Pre-settled status
An EU national and their family member(s) who have not lived in the UK for a continuous period of five years will be granted pre-settled status (also known as limited leave to remain).
Again, there are no specific requirements that an applicant will need to meet other than being a resident of the UK. Whilst there is no set duration of time in which an individual must have been residing in the UK prior to making an application, in order to be eligible under the scheme, an EU national must have been living in the UK by 31 December 2020.
Close family members of an EU national wishing to join them in the UK will still be able to do so after this date providing that the EU national lived in the UK prior to 31 December 2020 and the relationship existed prior to this date. Any family member arriving in the UK after 31 December 2020 will have three months in which to make an application under the scheme.”


Pre settled status is exactly the same as most EU nationals status’ were before Brexit. They have the same EU rights protected, nothing changes for them. The difference between pre-settled and settled is simply time they have been here at the point when they apply.

The UK *knows* this. They know many people will forget to apply from pre-settled status to settled status. Those people will become illegal. It's a tragedy waiting to happen. If they are serious about making acceptance the default, why make the system so onerous?


There is no defined time limit on that status when you look at the legals. Yes at 5 years they should apply for Settled status if they wish to remain, but there is nothing in the legislation saying that there is a timelimit on when they have to do that. Simply that the individual will become eligible for settled status after 5 years. The difference is simply the time people have been here.

Settled/pre-settled status is for people who do not want to become British citizens but retain their National identity (EU citizen). The process to become a British citizen doesn't actually change.

Naturalisation
Anyone who holds an EU Permanent Residence document is able to stay in the UK indefinitely. They will be eligible to apply for British citizenship after demonstrating that they have been free of immigration restrictions for 12 months, unless married to a British citizen in which case they are eligible to apply to naturalise immediately. The same will apply to those who have settled status under the EU Settlement Scheme.


Further, lets pretend that after 5 years they become illegal, don’t you think that person would be marking that date in their diary? Don’t you think its something so important you wouldn’t forget? Is the idiot who wrote this serious??!

Also, If an EU citizen already has an EU permanent residence document, they automatically get settled status.

Today I saw someone in desperation, lives with her boyfriend for many years, no NI number, nothing in her name (no bills, rental contracts), how on Earth is she going to even get settled status?


Sooooo someone with no national insurance number who has been here many years? Do you seriously think that is the norm? Also dont you think this 'person' should GET a national insurance number and start paying some NI?

Regardless, his person doesnt seem to satisfy the CURRENT EU requirements for settling in the UK, Article 6 and Article 7 of Directive 2004/38/EC.

the EU citizen must be and continue to be a worker, self-employed person, student, or self-sufficient person


But regardless still …. They dont seem to even need a national insurance number
From UK Gov:
When you apply, you’ll need proof of:
• your identity
• your residence in the UK, unless you have a valid permanent residence document, or valid indefinite leave to remain in or enter the UK
• your relationship to a family member from the EU living in the UK, if you’re from outside the EU


Looks like they will be fine. Dry your eyes.

I was waiting to see what they would do. When they said we are going to make acceptance the default, and we'll make sure you can stay, you're welcome etc. I knew they were lying. I mean, as we speak, they're deporting Windrush-generation citizens!"


This person is fear mongering. No EU citizens are getting deported... where is the proof? Show me some proof that EU citizens are getting deported BEFORE the brexit date.... While EU rules are still in place!? I mean ... what ... utter .. horseshit!

I wouldn’t be surprised if their ‘people I met’ are entirely fictional constructed to spread their misinformation to people like you who lap it up because you cannot be bothered to look at the actual legislation.

Settled status provides EU citizens with the same rights they would have should we not have left the EU. So essentially a quick application and nothing changes for them. If they are a criminal, they get rejected, as well they should, and as they would be if applying for an EU Permanent residence document and we were still in the EU ... so even there nothing changes.

So your brilliant responses have been 'real people' who dont know the process ... and a quote from a rock star millionaire. inspired work.

I am sure you will have a pithy response from a stoic or something more about 'Karma' But hopefully the rest of the board are a little more enlightened.

I have personal experience of real people from outside the EU who have been completely Fucked by their migration ideas and asylum policies. If some people from France need to pop back across the channel to their 1st world country .. I'm not shedding any tears for them, sorry. My friend being deported to a 3rd world country who's language he doesnt even speak... because of the EU .. bit of a different scale i am afraid and a bit of a more serious moral problem.
Last edited by middleway on Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:36 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:29 am

....just some online quarrels……and maybe a little rioting in the streets


hahaha. Ahhhh online quarrels... a staple.

I am really only posting to provide a counterpoint to Grahams inane screaming into the night. It is fun to see how triggered he is ... but is time consuming i must admit!

I expect to come back in a few days to a full suite of 'stories', huffpost (or any other 'unbiased news source') articles,and maybe a couple of youtube videos.

The only decision i need to make now is ... should i waste my time responding. Something to ponder!

Back to more useful pursuits for now!
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:48 am

Basically someone has figured out that emotional arguments carry more weight than intellectual ones. My country is probably the worst for this where the news used to be of a bunch of stories and headlines yet now its people talking at length and debating a usually one insignificant story and getting people outraged on all sides.


A very good podcast on that very topic.

https://samharris.org/podcasts/145-information-war/

I think it is pertinent to this topic too, I wouldn't be surprised if much of the stuff posted on both sides of Brexit is stemming from similar tactics and precisely the reason i avoid 'the news' or 'facebook groups' for anything but an idea to look into independently.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:56 am

"I am really only posting to provide a counterpoint to Grahams inane screaming into the night. "

Oh please. Just go and find something useful to do. You're turning into my psycho stalker.
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