the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

The whole thing is such a farce.

From that bastion of the left-wing press, the FT:

"Boris Johnson ‘only recently realised full meaning of single market’, EU chief reportedly claims"

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-chief-clai ... 03411.html

Really, I'm not surprised.

who said the law is an ass ?
give that guy a cigar already.

not that i think it mattered so much, or made a huge difference.

to move forward we either need a breakthrough on a deal - which may not be so far fetched
or we need another election.

all the time the clock ticks away on another deadline..
the politics getting uglier and more farcical, day by day, week by week

what a great time to be alive.

Historic day, and a great verdict.

I'd like a people's vote. There's a deal on the table, put it to the people vs remain. I'd accept the result whatever it is.

tell me about it..

Why we really care about a parliament being there that rejected a perfectly ok compromise deal 3 times I don't know either.
But sure, I really don't know either why I should care if a bunch of Irish want to massacre eachother.
If they are really that sick in the head a border that is no problem for so many countries and peoples can turn them violent.... Well who says a smaller population can't lead to better things?

Parliament is a separate issue that I'll come back to, but your post is exactly what I just don't get about this whole Brexit thing - or maybe I mean I just don't understand so many British people and their attitude to others. I keep seeing this same vibe from you (and Middleway) - this lack of concern for other people.

"But sure, I really don't know either why I should care if a bunch of Irish want to massacre eachother."


I mean, do you really not care if Brexit means the end of the Good Friday agreement and the Irish go back to bombing and murdering each other? Thats what you just said. Do you really just think, ah well, fuck 'em, it's their problem? I presume you're old enough to remember 'the troubles' like I am, but you might remember that the bombs were not restricted to Ireland - plenty of bombing in England. It took years to achieve the Good Friday Agreement to end it. Do you really not mind going back to all that and doing it all again? Just "why I should care"?

Sure it's your right to not care, but I don't know if you are just saying that, or you really don't give a shit about other people apart from your own 'tribe'?

"Well who says a smaller population can't lead to better things?"

This is also something I've heard a lot said by people. Normally it's to do with Climate Change - a 'thinning of the herd'- won't be a bad thing.

But I wonder people really understand what that means in reality. Have you really thought that through, about how we achieve a 'smaller population'. How do you think it happens?

Am I just some sort of softie that I don't want to see people get their lives ruined because a lot of old British people don't like Polish people working in Tesco?

If that's what hardening the fuck up means, I don't think I want to harden the fuck up.

My take on this sorry story:

The original referendum led to a tight but clear result. But more than 3 years later the situation and the options have changed significantly. In retrospect the binary referendum question, simply ‘yes’ or ‘no’, was flawed. Before the referendum, leading persons on the Leave side confidently predicted that a ‘positive’ negotiated Brexit deal was a certainty, plus other statements and claims since shown to be false (= lies). Hence it is justifiable to say that while a narrow majority of 17.4 million British citizens voted ‘leave’ in the referendum, not all of these imagined, supported or wanted the ‘leave with no deal whatsoever’ which is now looming. Quite probably a considerable proportion didn’t envisage or want that. On the other hand, simply cancelling Brexit – although personally I wish for the UK to stay in the EU – could indeed arguably be seen as ‘undermining democracy and the will of the people’ and would certainly widen the gulf in British society even further. Maybe at some point it wouldn’t just be ‘those Irish’ who might start working to create ‘a smaller population’. It could be the mainland citizenry as well. Sounds kinda crazy but Western, and British, society really is changing at the moment. And when it comes to political culture and consensus, not in a good direction.

Hence I think that a second referendum really is the best option, offering at least 3 choices that at least approximately reflect current reality in the UK and Europe.

A general election in the UK is held every 5 years. No one says there: the majority elected Party X to run the country, so you can’t go back 5 years later and ask them again, just because the situation has changed. That’s exactly what you do. After more than 3 years and with such a different reality than the one predicted at that time by the Leave campaign, I think a new referendum is the least worst option.

There's problems with having 3 options on a 2nd referendum - you split the leave vote 2 ways.

Another way to do it would be maybe 2 questions:

Do you want to leave? Yes/No

If we leave do you want the deal or no deal? (Indicate which)

Yes, for instance.

I thought this was spot on:

“"Britain is five weeks away from the ruinous and dangerous position of leaving the European Union without a deal. There is no sign of the country having made any progress towards getting one. Boris Johnson did not meet the 30-day deadline set by Angela Merkel to come up with an alternative solution to replace the Irish backstop to resolve the Brexit impasse with the European Union. This week he suffered a devastating judicial blow in the supreme court over an attempt to suspend parliament for an unprecedented five weeks at a time of political crisis to evade scrutiny. In a worrying sign of how far the Tories have embraced radical populism, its MPs responded by calling for the court to be abolished. And instead of remorse Mr Johnson offered offence in parliament, couching his bluster in the jingoistic terms of “betrayal”, “surrender” and “sabotage”. He is exasperated that his opponents refuse to fall into the trap of calling for an early election.

Mr Johnson, like his predecessor Theresa May, describes Brexit as the will of the British people. It isn’t – not least because there was no shared vision as to what “leave” actually meant – but the language is designed to remove dissent, and any acknowledgment of diverse voices and views. The contraction of Brexit and the national interest has curdled and soured British politics. While the result deserves respect, almost half the country opposed it. During the referendum campaign Mr Johnson, a prominent leaver, did not engage in a deliberative, honest and respectful argument with opponents – a historic failure in light of the gravity of the decision. In office he has continued to offer insouciance and belligerence."

Hey UK, shit is about to get real.

"“Whipping up the idea of riots or even deaths if we do not leave the EU on 31 October is the height of irresponsibility,” he said. “But it is also pretty obviously being orchestrated. If this is part of a government plan to misuse powers under emergency legislation, I can assure the prime minister we will defeat him in court and in parliament.”

Former Tory MP and attorney general Dominic Grieve said he could see no other possible way Downing Street could comply with the law and deliver Brexit on time. “The Civil Contingencies Act is the only possible route I can imagine they can be thinking of,” Grieve said. “But if they do try to do this it would be a constitutional outrage. And if it passed through parliament it would be immediately challenged in the courts.”"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-deal

This is it - the end game of Brexit.

No more time for a "nuanced position". Time to decide where you stand.

Empire or Rebel Alliance?

Trick wrote:

GrahamB wrote: even the Avengers are against "Incredible Boris"

Not fully so, the incredible CPT AMERICA is with him, that’s what counts...

Captain America is too busy trying to stay out of prison so it looks like Boris is on his own.

Party time in the USA!

grzegorz wrote:

Trick wrote:

GrahamB wrote: even the Avengers are against "Incredible Boris"

Not fully so, the incredible CPT AMERICA is with him, that’s what counts...

Captain America is too busy trying to stay out of prison so it looks like Boris is on his own.

Party time in the USA!

incredibly, there is always an cpt america, one goes another comes

[/quote] incredibly, there is always an cpt america, one goes another comes[/quote]

Have you heard of the new book about Olaf Palme?