BREXIT

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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:58 am

[/quote] incredibly, there is always an cpt america, one goes another comes[/quote]

Have you heard of the new book about Olaf Palme?
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:30 am

True that Trick.

This is often referred to as the Great Man Theory in history. I too am surprised how often people buy into this debunked theory. Yet it seems global; Duterte, Johnson, Duda, Orban, Putin, the list goes on and goes.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:38 am

Steve James wrote:
incredibly, there is always an cpt america, one goes another comes[/quote]

Have you heard of the new book about Olaf Palme?[/quote]
No, but i guess its on yet another theory about the assassination of him ? Do you have the title of the book ?


Mean while I tried to find out about a new book, I found this weird...-https://www.housepalme.com
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:40 am

True that Grzegorz. The list goes on
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:06 am

Trick wrote:
Steve James wrote:
incredibly, there is always an cpt america, one goes another comes


Have you heard of the new book about Olaf Palme?[/quote]
No, but i guess its on yet another theory about the assassination of him ? Do you have the title of the book ?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnew ... 019-09-28/
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Re: BREXIT

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:02 am

GrahamB wrote:Parliament is a separate issue that I'll come back to, but your post is exactly what I just don't get about this whole Brexit thing - or maybe I mean I just don't understand so many British people and their attitude to others. I keep seeing this same vibe from you (and Middleway) - this lack of concern for other people.

"But sure, I really don't know either why I should care if a bunch of Irish want to massacre eachother."


I mean, do you really not care if Brexit means the end of the Good Friday agreement and the Irish go back to bombing and murdering each other? Thats what you just said. Do you really just think, ah well, fuck 'em, it's their problem? I presume you're old enough to remember 'the troubles' like I am, but you might remember that the bombs were not restricted to Ireland - plenty of bombing in England. It took years to achieve the Good Friday Agreement to end it. Do you really not mind going back to all that and doing it all again? Just "why I should care"?

Sure it's your right to not care, but I don't know if you are just saying that, or you really don't give a shit about other people apart from your own 'tribe'?

"Well who says a smaller population can't lead to better things?"

This is also something I've heard a lot said by people. Normally it's to do with Climate Change - a 'thinning of the herd'- won't be a bad thing.

But I wonder people really understand what that means in reality. Have you really thought that through, about how we achieve a 'smaller population'. How do you think it happens?

Am I just some sort of softie that I don't want to see people get their lives ruined because a lot of old British people don't like Polish people working in Tesco?

If that's what hardening the fuck up means, I don't think I want to harden the fuck up. ;D




Well i was being cynical and over the top, of course - sometimes a black humour creeps into my narrative.
Are you not able to tell these things - that we need to excuse ourselves for being practical, if not totally human..

excuse me sir, while a I live and breath. :)
But a serious and real point underlines such a stance, I beleive.

I simply don't beleive in letting Terrorists win or intimidate me or my decisions.
If I make a peaceful decision, but a terrorist or bully tells me it may cause him to do violence.

the law (and my own principles) I live by is clear.
the rest is bullshit

why should the threat of terrorism and terrorists derail what was voted for by a majority in our country?
That's right, it absolutely should not.

whether it's local or international, the law is there to protect us from terrorist assholes who would otherwise blackmail us into following certain demands..

This time it's the fear of a return to what terrorists and or warmongers from either side of the Irish problem might do. A hard border you know - the sheer offence of it wouldn't you know... If either side of the irish problem want to use a hard border as an excuse for trouble. Or if people want to use it as an excuse to inflate project fear.

I don't buy it, i won't fall for it. I don't accept it.
Does that mean I actually want to see bloodshed, that i have no compassion for innocents ?
Please, I won't even dignify that.

And isn't this just another illustration of our communication problems over brexit in the UK.
This is simply my response to fearmongering over potential terrorist acts to be carried out by self appointed soldiers (criminal and terrorist threat).. not real actual tragic circumstances that affect innocents.

There is a difference.
On the other hand; the guilty are welcome to rot in any hell of their choosing. Let them kill eachother like the men they think they are.. Just like real soldiers choose to.

Absolutely I don't want it to happen, i care about the people they threaten and that's why they can't and shouldn't 'win' - in ANY event. Hard border included.

I'm not unsympathetic to the guilty either, they can have redemption too.
But first, they have to admit they did something wrong!

It's pretty simple - should the rest suffer, because some extremists can't put past troubles behind them ? I choose no, it's that simple.
This is a new thing, a new kind of border, for new reasons, it is unconnected to the past and the now 'old troubles', of the past.
Only the very worst could use this as an excuse to bring those troubles and violence back.
I lived through all that and you did too - no one in their right mind wants to see it come back.

For me there's just not enough here to justify the suspension of certain principles.

I firmly believe in not letting the bad guys win.. and that wins out for me, in this whole scenario.
Not to mention I want a deal done asap for the benefit of all involved - which it would be.
This is largely what is scuppering a deal, we're all being held to ransom by some irrational fear of what some shithead terrorists might do.

It is the Irish border that has been the major stumbling block, entirely due to old troubles, carried out by terrorists and scumbags prepeared to massacre innocents....

On what planet is that supposed to be ok, or something we should live with and accept happily, in this case concede to the very threat of it..
Not in my world, it's just that simple.
people have died throughout history protecting what is right and good.

So we can benefit.

Let's not betray that now.
please?

regards
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:44 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:52 am

Giles wrote:My take on this sorry story:

The original referendum led to a tight but clear result. But more than 3 years later the situation and the options have changed significantly. In retrospect the binary referendum question, simply ‘yes’ or ‘no’, was flawed. Before the referendum, leading persons on the Leave side confidently predicted that a ‘positive’ negotiated Brexit deal was a certainty, plus other statements and claims since shown to be false (= lies). Hence it is justifiable to say that while a narrow majority of 17.4 million British citizens voted ‘leave’ in the referendum, not all of these imagined, supported or wanted the ‘leave with no deal whatsoever’ which is now looming. Quite probably a considerable proportion didn’t envisage or want that. On the other hand, simply cancelling Brexit – although personally I wish for the UK to stay in the EU – could indeed arguably be seen as ‘undermining democracy and the will of the people’ and would certainly widen the gulf in British society even further. Maybe at some point it wouldn’t just be ‘those Irish’ who might start working to create ‘a smaller population’. It could be the mainland citizenry as well. Sounds kinda crazy but Western, and British, society really is changing at the moment. And when it comes to political culture and consensus, not in a good direction.

Hence I think that a second referendum really is the best option, offering at least 3 choices that at least approximately reflect current reality in the UK and Europe.

A general election in the UK is held every 5 years. No one says there: the majority elected Party X to run the country, so you can’t go back 5 years later and ask them again, just because the situation has changed. That’s exactly what you do. After more than 3 years and with such a different reality than the one predicted at that time by the Leave campaign, I think a new referendum is the least worst option.


Honestly..

The way Nicola Sturgeon keeps carrying on we should cut loose Scotland next.
Maybe all the Corbynistas can bugger off up there and create their own little communist eutopia.

England and the land of Dragons will do me just fine.
I'm only half joking, obviously.. ;)
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:56 am

Giles,

divisions over EU have existed within our politics for a long time. for ages they just sat there festering.
the many times we went to the polls didn't ever change that.

But you're suggesting it might work now ?
interesting! :D

we have had an uneasy relationship from the start.
the deepening relationship has only deepened the feeling of some to not be part of it.

be that on the ground or the higher echelons.

Euroscepticism was not a one time or flash in the pan thing.
It won't just go away, thinking this is really quite odd, if i may say.

why do you think that ?

the only thing new elections might do at this point, if we really don't listen to or abide the decision we all made together - with our eyes open - has already been tipped off to us.

Nigel Farage and his Brexit party will be the next big winners at the polls. Like they were at the not so long ago euro elections.
Then all our xmas's will really come at once.

It's the reason we had a referendum in the first place
it's the reason brexit won
it's the reason his first party got so strong
and it will be the next reason too, his new political party gains more power.

maybe you are right, everyone will simply forget about it all..

Was it really simply a case of populism and (the effects of) austerity sucking up all the profiles the Leave campaign needed with clever marketing in the run up to a referendum.. so we hope that suddenly a good chunk get amnesia and change their mind.

that's wishful thinking to me at this point..
... perhaps, or perhaps you're right and I'm wrong about the politics. Can a sense for nationalism ever depart any political sphere completely ?

I don't know.

Corbyn's refusal to take it to the polls recently was a fair indication - I thought - that most if not all of those democratic blockers in Parliament are hardly confident of the electorate to see it their way, or forget our collective history over this issue. Neutrality won't cut it either.

Rightly so, in my opinion.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:51 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:29 am

Some people just want to see the world burn I guess?

I don't know what can be done. You can't reach these people.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:02 am

The thing is G, the world always seems to be burning somewhere or other.
Sometimes all we can do is make the choice of the lesser evil, as we see it.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Trick on Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:27 am

In the very late 14th century and for some hundred twenty years onward there was the Kalmar Union which was an union of the Scandinavian nations.

But Sweden finally broke lose from it and eventually became an European superpower and a prosperous nation....of course a lot of intriguing and hard work had to be done over time.


Now while in the EU Sweden is gradually and somewhat quick falling in ratings.......Maybe a Swexit once again will do good... 8-)
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:29 pm

For Trick,

Those westerners I was telling you about (in China on a separate thread) don't have pensions and to be honest most Americans don't either. We were sold on a 401K which was supposed to supplement your pension (as mine does).

I bring it up here because the EU is one of the few places were people can expect to have pensions for non-government employment because it is definitely not the US anymore.

Anyway, just something I find important and wanted to mention. It is tragic.

Let the discussions continue...
Last edited by grzegorz on Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:17 am

"Britons with serious, sometimes terminal, illnesses who live in the EU say they have no certainty about how or even whether their healthcare costs will be covered after a no-deal Brexit and are suffering a “living nightmare” of anxiety and despair.

“It’s like a death sentence,” said Denise Abel, who moved to Italy in 2012. “It’s all you think about. I feel abandoned, betrayed and furious. There are no words for the rage I feel. We’re the collateral damage in the government’s war with the EU.” "

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... healthcare
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:42 am

Can’t they go back to Britain for the care ?
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:33 am

Free Webinar (registration required)

About this Event

Brexit -- the departure of the United Kingdom from the European Union -- is an event that will have immense economic and political importance on the entire course the world is taking in this century. But the deep historical roots of this event are poorly understood and almost never make it into media coverage. What really is Brexit? How did Britain get into the EU in the first place? What is the EU? What's a "Eurosceptic?" What lessons can we draw from Brexit's past that might help us understand how it will affect the future?

This webinar is designed to deliver a brief but deep understanding of where Brexit came from and what the stakes are.

Take-aways:

Understand what the European Union is and why it was created.
Understand why the UK's relationship with the EU has been contentious since the beginning.
Appreciate the historical issues Brexit implicates, including the Irish border, common market, and economic divisions in the UK and Europe.
Understand how and why Brexit almost happened 25 years ago.
Connect Brexit to larger current issues including climate change and globalization.
Appreciate how geography is key to comprehending Brexit.

This webinar is historical, not political or partisan. It is not merely a static lecture; with Dr. Munger's "geohistory" approach you will see the places where key events took place and visit them virtually. It is also interactive. Written materials will be distributed by email.

The main presentation is scheduled to last one hour, but may run over especially with Q&A.


https://www.eventbrite.com/e/webinar-th ... jBAn18_k7k
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