The Perfect Storm continues

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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby RobP3 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:41 am

Steve James wrote:The thing is that men who haven't abused women, or vice versa, have nothing to fear.
And, if they didn't think it was abusive before, now they know. If the allegations are untrue, just sue. Don't pay off.

The innocent tend to fight. The guilty tend to avoid or flee.

I think that a single accusation shouldn't cost anyone his job. Otoh, when multiple women come forward about being abused by the same guy, who was their boss, that guy needs to go. The punishment should fit the crime.


Agree. The balance has been tipped to one extreme for far too long. I know personally of several women who underwent all types of sexual abuse a few decades back and were never believed and/ or were actively and vigorously discouraged from speaking out and worse. If the price to pay for reversing that is a handful of dubious claims, so be it.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby northern_mantis on Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:27 pm

I respectfully disagree. IMO it’s the men who are grabbing their pitch forks and torches and joining the mob that are running scared.Anyone who is willing to abandon the whole premise of a civilised justice system (I.e. innocent until proven guilty) must be trying to ally themselves with the accusers for self preservation or social/sexual point scoring.

I’m sure if I posted a bunch of names and suggested they were all murderers or thieves people would be calling for evidence or a retraction. I don’t think abandoning the truth in the present is the best way to make up for the sins of the past. If anybody has the opportunity to meet a family law solicitor ask them how many of their cases come with unfounded accusations, it’s the majority, that’s just the way business is done now. As I said, complete disrespect for genuine victims.

Imagine being on the receiving end of one of these dubious claims, being discredited in the media, being suspended or sacked from work with no evidence, losing family and friends. Then if you can prove your innocence (because that’s the requirement) the best you can hope for is a footnote of a retraction and you still lose everything you’ve worked for. The accuser is entitled to lifelong anonymity even if proved to be lying. An appalling chapter in human history as far as I’m concerned.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Steve James on Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:07 pm

Well, sure, there are loads of hypocritical men. They're being Pointed out too. And there are still way more men who haven't been accused. But plenty my who probably can be. I know of men who've been accused by students and other staff who have simply been moved to other departments. The women still had to deal with them.

Sexual harassment is not necessarily a crime. But, a casting couch doesn't have to be accepted by an employee. If someone is fired without cause, that's something forward the court to decide. If it's untrue, sue. Slander is a crime.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Bao on Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:46 am

northern_mantis wrote:Imagine being on the receiving end of one of these dubious claims, being discredited in the media, being suspended or sacked from work with no evidence, losing family and friends. Then if you can prove your innocence (because that’s the requirement) the best you can hope for is a footnote of a retraction and you still lose everything you’ve worked for. The accuser is entitled to lifelong anonymity even if proved to be lying. An appalling chapter in human history as far as I’m concerned.


The issue at hand is not about one timers, about people who did something once. The big issue is about a climate where there are frequent abusers, mostly men who harass women and behaves badly on a daily basis. Nobody here and nobody in traditional media or in social media care about someone who behaved badly once when they were drunk. The people who are being hanged out are men that everyone in their surrounding knows about, men that terrorise their surroundings in different ways, who humiliate people around them every day just because they like it, men there are countless of stories about, men that truly deserve losing their jobs, their friends and family.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Strange on Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:42 am

Bao wrote:
northern_mantis wrote:Imagine being on the receiving end of one of these dubious claims, being discredited in the media, being suspended or sacked from work with no evidence, losing family and friends. Then if you can prove your innocence (because that’s the requirement) the best you can hope for is a footnote of a retraction and you still lose everything you’ve worked for. The accuser is entitled to lifelong anonymity even if proved to be lying. An appalling chapter in human history as far as I’m concerned.


The issue at hand is not about one timers, about people who did something once. The big issue is about a climate where there are frequent abusers, mostly men who harass women and behaves badly on a daily basis. Nobody here and nobody in traditional media or in social media care about someone who behaved badly once when they were drunk. The people who are being hanged out are men that everyone in their surrounding knows about, men that terrorise their surroundings in different ways, who humiliate people around them every day just because they like it, men there are countless of stories about, men that truly deserve losing their jobs, their friends and family.


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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Steve James on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:31 am

Excuses that used to go over. https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/danny-masterson’s-spox-it’s-not-rape-if-it’s-your-girlfriend/ar-BBFycXk?li=BBnbfcL
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby KEND on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:28 pm

An interesting theory in the UK 'Sun' newspaper
BEST SERVED COLD Was the Harvey Weinstein expose in The New Yorker a revenge plot on Hollywood by Woody Allen’s journalist son Ronan Farrow? The article written by Woody Allen's son Ronan Farrow opened the floodgates of accusations against Harvey Weinstein. But it was Weinstein who saved Ronan's father's career in the 90s after Allen faced accusations he sexually abused his daughter and Ronan's sister Dylan.
By Corey Charlton
13th October 2017, 11:43 am
WOODY Allen's son appears to have exacted sweet revenge on Hollywood following years of campaigning against sexual harassment within the industry. Ronan Farrow, Allen's estranged 29-year-old son, was the author of Tuesday's New Yorker article which helped open the floodgates of accusations against movie mogul Harvey Weinstein. Ronan Farrow's damning New Yorker article helped open a floodgate of accusations against movie producer Harvey Weinstein. Ronan Farrow's damning New Yorker article helped open a floodgate of accusations against movie producer Harvey Weinstein. Farrow - the son of Allen and ex-wife Mia Farrow - has publicly said his sister Dylan's accusations that their dad sexually assaulted her when she was seven are credible. Allen has always denied the claims.This has led to an estrangement with dad Allen, as well as multiple public statements on Twitter about Hollywood's failure to address the allegations. In May last year, Ronan wrote a guest opinion piece for The Hollywood Reporter about the importance of giving accusers the chance to speak out. In it he also addressed her accusations against his father.
It came after Ronan expressed his sister's account of sex assault accusations against the father, Woody Allen as 'credible'
AFP
Revenge...? Weinstein, the subject of the New Yorker article, was the man who saved Allen's career in the 90s when it floundered following the accusations
AFP or licensor
He wrote: "I believe my sister. This was always true as a brother who trusted her, and, even at 5 years old, was troubled by our father's strange behavior around her."At the time, prosecutors decided not to press charges. And in a remarkable twist of fate, it was Weinstein who was responsible for reviving Woody Allen's career after the filmmaker was shunned when the allegations were first made. At the time, Weinstein was at the helm of Miramax.
He declared: "Shunned by Hollywood means nothing to Miramax," The Times reports.
"We’re talking about a comic genius. Chaplin was shunned by Hollywood, so were a great many other international film makers and those are the people who belong with Miramax." The downfall for Weinstein has been sharp, with his wife Georgina Chapman this week announcing she was leaving him and multiple law forces looking into the accusations.
And longtime collaborator Quentin Tarantino broke his silence today to say he was "stunned and heartbroken" by the allegations.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Michael on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:50 pm

Steve James wrote:The thing is that men who haven't abused women, or vice versa, have nothing to fear.

What? So there are no serious, immediate and irreversible consequences from false accusations?

If the allegations are untrue, just sue. Don't pay off.

Sure, after you get out of jail, if you can afford bail. Now you've lost your job and are being shunned by most of the people you know, just go ahead and hire a lawyer in order to sue your accuser.

The innocent tend to fight. The guilty tend to avoid or flee.

Unless the accusation, by itself, without any supporting evidence, is so damaging that you are afraid of anyone finding out.

I think that a single accusation shouldn't cost anyone his job.

But it often does.

Otoh, when multiple women come forward about being abused by the same guy, who was their boss, that guy needs to go. The punishment should fit the crime.

Mostly agree, just cautious about a witch hunt atmosphere increasing false allegations.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Michael on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:56 pm

RobP3 wrote:Agree. The balance has been tipped to one extreme for far too long. I know personally of several women who underwent all types of sexual abuse a few decades back and were never believed and/ or were actively and vigorously discouraged from speaking out and worse. If the price to pay for reversing that is a handful of dubious claims, so be it.

A handful of dubious claims?

Rob, would you be willing to pay that price yourself from a false rape or sexual assault accusation, to lose your reputation, your job, and do time in jail while your family suffers without your presence or your income, all in order to make up for past wrongdoings against women that you think were previously biased in the other direction?

Do you recall the false accusation of rape in a tube station by delusional and/or malicious Souad Faress against a completely innocent man when she said he fingered her while passing by? An obvious impossibility from the very CCTV footage used by police to identify him, yet the case went to trial anyway.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-Uhe5WIfEc

Tried for a sex crime... because I brushed past a film star in rush-hour

So I guess giving the green light to more of this insanity of police not being able to dismiss obvious liars is some kind of reparations for past instances of men mistreating women, and that's men in general, not individual criminals?

Believe every accuser? Every time? Always? That's almost as absurd as most men are sexual predators. I don't think things are that simple. I won't give up the principle of a process of investigation in favor of allowing "a handful of dubious claims" to damage more innocent people. There's a well-established standard in place that is necessary to avoid several pitfalls that arise from letting an accusation go unchallenged.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby RobP3 on Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:49 am

Michael wrote:
Believe every accuser? Every time? Always? That's almost as absurd as most men are sexual predators. I don't think things are that simple. I won't give up the principle of a process of investigation in favor of allowing "a handful of dubious claims" to damage more innocent people. There's a well-established standard in place that is necessary to avoid several pitfalls that arise from letting an accusation go unchallenged.


That's not how police investigations work, at least not in the UK. And people have been prosecuted here for making false claims. In the meantime, thousands of other offences, according to all the research, have gone unreported. Hence my comment about balance.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:14 am

RobP3 wrote: In the meantime, thousands of other offences, according to all the research, have gone unreported.

Kind of until now, at least with the "metoo" movement, and it could create a lot of problem for law enforcement. Who are getting hundreds of abuse offense reports daily about abuse done literally yesterday, and now celebrities come together and accuse and maybe report what happened years maybe decades ago. If the everage girls and guys can report quite immediately celebrities should be able too, then there maybe wouldn't be a storm now
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Steve James on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:40 am

Yeah, police are being bombarded with false claims. No celebrity has been arrested yet. Weinstein will probably be charged, for rape, but there have been no trials. The only thing that's occurred is some firings. Funny how many of these people have denied the accusations.

I know that the threat of being accused scares the shit out of some men.
Last edited by Steve James on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby RobP3 on Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:10 am

Trick wrote:
RobP3 wrote: In the meantime, thousands of other offences, according to all the research, have gone unreported.

Kind of until now, at least with the "metoo" movement, and it could create a lot of problem for law enforcement. Who are getting hundreds of abuse offense reports daily about abuse done literally yesterday, and now celebrities come together and accuse and maybe report what happened years maybe decades ago. If the everage girls and guys can report quite immediately celebrities should be able too, then there maybe wouldn't be a storm now


The whole thing about non-reporting is historical, whether it was child abuse (Savile and co) or adult sexual assault. In the past people were warned off, discouraged or simply felt too ashamed to report. A lot has improved, but the statistics are chilling.

https://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby Steve James on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:18 am

Imo, too many issues are being confused. A guy (any guy) being fired today because he sexually harassed someone on his staff or at his workplace has no legitimate defense against that firing. He's an employee, and his employer has rules. The scandal would be if the employer ignored complaints filed against the guy today or in the past.

The standard for "sexual harassment" on the job is less complicated than in society, generally. I use the NYC subway at rush hour, and I've brushed up against a lot of ladies' derrieres. Otoh, I know lots of cases where women complained of being groped; with charges being filed, and pictures of the offender shown on tv. There have been lots of cases of men exposing themselves. These, however, are all crimes.

The Weinstein issue isn't something that I have any worries about. At the same time, there's a legitimate argument that most of what he did might not have been criminal. Yeah, he might have used a casting couch, but --unless he used force or drugged them, like Cosby-- they had the choice to leave. People (male and female) have screwed to get ahead, and sucked to keep a job.

That happens, but it's a choice. In the past, it was acceptable, and people --especially attractive women-- expected it to some extent. And, even if they were surprised, there was no sense mentioning it. The only thing that's changed today is that it's not acceptable; and people have no problem calling it out. No worries. Most men have (or should have) no reason to fear.
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Re: The Perfect Storm continues

Postby chud on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:07 am

Now Matt Lauer has been fired from the Today show.
His co-anchors Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Kotb were shocked and dismayed.
I listened to the Howard Stern show a bit this morning and he and Robin were shocked also.
None of them seemed to think he would do something like that...
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