the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Don't put words in my mouth, man. You guys are into this collective guilt bullshit that throwing "a handful of cases"—meaning other men—under the bus to help women is part of a solution to this huge problem, that includes sexual assault, harassment, and false accusations.

RobP3 wrote:

Michael wrote:I'm still surprised by the difference in ratio between those FBI stats in the USA of 67:12 female to male victims, and the ones in the UK of 850:12 female to male victims. 850:12? Doesn't sound right.

Doesn't sound right or you don't want it to be right?

Maybe it's just totally different numbers in the UK.

Michael wrote:Don't put words in my mouth, man. You guys are into this collective guilt bullshit that throwing "a handful of cases"—meaning other men—under the bus to help women is part of a solution to this huge problem, that includes sexual assault, harassment, and false accusations.

Lol, that's what you've been doing all along and just did it again.

Well, not my intention. I must have mis-read you.

The following was an e mail from a female friend who has been a lifelong activist for women's rights for over half a century. Theme is: is this getting out of hand and becoming a witch hunt. I agree that the events of the last year has outed a lot of pervs but as she says there is a need for new guidelines or the slightest nuance in communication could be construed as harassment. I noticed over the last decade that the French custom of kissing on the cheek has become common, as has hugging. Dare we do them anymore, could a handshake be construed as a non consensual act
I am with Jane Curtin on this whole Revenge of the Victims/Survivors/whatever scenario that is going on. Every time I hear of a new Accused (most recently Charlie Rose), I think of the Salem Witch Trials:
Jane Curtin: "I'm just so upset about this atmosphere and good people being dragged into it," she said. "It's just like the red menace. You don't know who's going to be next."
Sexual harassment is of course a serious systemic issue and needs to be dealt with just like any other form of dehumanization and abuse.
But to fire someone on the basis of accusation alone is scary, especially when we are talking about inappropriate behavior that shows poor judgment, not rape.
I think we need a kind of default reset and some common sense guidelines (along the lines of, say, what Camille Paglia has been recommending since 1990).
(I remember learning from both my parents at a very early age how to be alert to predators and what actions to take.)
Bottom line: women need to learn better coping skills and tools. Frankly, the women who are coming forward now sound like they were terribly naive and sheltered to be so traumatized by such inappropriate nonphysical behavior. Also, how could those actresses whose parents were in the business not know about the proverbial famous/infamous producer's/director's couch? I certainly knew about such stories growing up. And of course there is always the elephant in the room: our bragging pussy-grabbing President.
Overall, I think right now the U.S. wins the prize for such cringe-worthy outrageousness!!!

Bottom line: women need to learn better coping skills and tools.

Better coping skills and tools for dealing with tools or men? What exactly is the responsibility of men in these situations?

Frankly, the women who are coming forward now sound like they were terribly naive and sheltered to be so traumatized by such inappropriate nonphysical behavior. Also, how could those actresses whose parents were in the business not know about the proverbial famous/infamous producer's/director's couch? I certainly knew about such stories growing up.

We're still talking about women understanding and coping with male behaviors. Frankly, this writer is talking about women in the entertainment industry, and that's only because they're the ones making the news, and the only reason for that is the stature of the men they're accusing.

I think that the writer is correct that women have some responsibility, but it's not the responsibility not to report if they feel they've been sexually harassed. And, there's still a difference between the workplace and in general society.

I lived in Paris. There, I could walk up to a strange woman and ask her out for a drink. In the US, it was unheard of. But, in Paris, a drink was just a drink. It wasn't an insult to be turned down, or an invitation if accepted. None of this has anything to do with coercing a coworker into sex, or using the Christmas party to feel up a secretary, or using sex to get a job.

So, who should complain, and when? I completely disagree with the writer's premise. There's no such thing as "too much" reporting of rape, even though women are blamed for having skirts on and going out for drinks with men. That's why they don't report.

And of course there is always the elephant in the room: our bragging pussy-grabbing President.

Yeah, I agree that the hypocrisy is disgusting, especially in "Christian" America. But, should the Great pussy-grabber change? or is it up to the women around him to understand? I think he decreed that the women in the white house had to dress like women, meaning skirts and dresses. Well, if you watch FOX News, you'll see what I mean. Otoh, it's cultural. I watch Spanish-language tv and ogle the weather women.

Interesting how many of the accusations point to a similar mode of operation for these incidents.
1. Initially meet, entice with offer of job (e.g. movie role)
2. Have come to final interview, which coincidentally happens to be in private home or hotel room
3. Find some excuse to appear in one's birthday suit, only covered somewhat by open bathrobe or tub water
4. Make ones moves

"Geraldo Rivera Apologizes to Bette Midler After Groping, Drugging Allegation"
http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/ ... llegation/

Never fails those that talk about it condemning others somehow always seem to
be involved in it themselves. Notice he's been kind of quite as of late.

A hypocrite will say he abhors in someone else something that he does himself. There's the old eastern wisdom: "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." Matt's point was the importance of introspection before condemnation. Of course, Jesus would say "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." But, the issue was capital punishment, not criticism or condemnation.

It's just like "love thine enemies," we are not hypocritical, but merciful, and follow the law and our creed. We have principles. Right. Fact is that sexual harassment against women is a cultural phenomenon. Whistling at pretty girls is/was acceptable because no one could stop it, women expected it, and some liked it when it came from the right place. Patting a woman on the butt wasn't acceptable, in the U.S., but it wasn't considered serious --by men, at least. Though, if a gay man patted a straight man on the rear, problems would be expected. Right?

I know. People will say that this is an attempt at collective guilt. I.e., blaming men. Yep, I'll be the first to admit that I've ran my hands over a few buttocks. But, always with someone intimate, never against a stranger. I think we can all be sinners and still recognize when something is wrong. It's possible.

If you're a committed sinner --and, admit it fellas, you know or have been that supposedly "committed" guy who thought side action was normal. All ya can do is not be that guy. Geraldo did the right thing to apologize. Let's see if it was a pattern that he's kept up.

Well, it's good to apologize, but forcing someone into the toilet and shoving poppers up their nose might need a little more than sorry. Has Miss Divine commented recently?

If you're a committed sinner --and, admit it fellas, you know or have been that supposedly "committed" guy who thought side action was normal.

Maybe me and my pals was all confirmed L7, but honestly this was not cool in my small circle and I seemed to have usually gravitated to be around those kinds of people over time. Some prudishness was the cause, some social conditioning, but also a choice.

And Steve I'm so relieved to hear you never grabbed any strange buttocks. I know you're a ladies man, so must've been a few temptations in them furren lands where they do that stuff.

I just went to too many bachelor's parties back in the day to have much faith in men. The internet wasn't built by Amazon.com or Yahoo, it was porn and "dating" services. Otoh, I'm not blaming men for infidelity; it takes two. My point was that many men think/thought certain behaviors are/were acceptable, whether they admitted it or not. So, that's why it's not surprising that things are coming out about people (men) that you'd never expect. "Uncle Bill, say it ain't so. I love the Cosby Show." "Bill, Dan, Geraldo, Charlie, GB, tsk, tsk, tsk." Yeah we All know someone ...

Growing up I pretty much understood whatever you could get away with was fair game. Getting a girl too drunk to say no was an open strategy.

We should understand as a society by now that women deserve to be treated with the same respect as men

Levine latest, at this rate there will be no actors, directors, musicians, politicians left

Minus the just plain unlucky abusers that got caught by the tsunami...
Sheesh, This whole male abuse "outing" thing is mostly selective.

There are people caught on camera that everyone knows, even the press, that they are not talking about--And may never talk about.
From Academy Award winners to your uncle Bob.

We're not even talking about the male on male abuse. Oh, no, no, no.
No!

Oh, and women have abused and are abusing too.
I've been grabbed, & more, by women. And I ain't telling!
It’s not their turn to be publicly shamed.

Yes, get rid of the criminal abusers and rapist. Put them where they belong. Those F'ing pigs.
Come on, stop being fooled.

Replace all men in power positions with women--and in 20-30 years?-- you'll see the problem clearly.
Power abuse is a human weakness for a lot of humans.