Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:10 am

RobP3 wrote:Because nothing exists in isolation and the more a pendulum swings one way, the more it will go back the other.
So balance your fear of being falsely accused of harassment with everything that has gone before. Personally, in 30+ years of teaching and working with women (and men!) I've never felt that being falsely accused of harassment was an issue. OTOH I've seen and experienced low level harassment (and worse), male and female, and the various ways it was resolved or ignored. Perhaps we have a different perspective in the UK.


No you've got the same perspective, you're just not a troglodyte.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:23 am

Whew, glad to say that I haven't had to change any of my behavior toward or with women because of this. I keep my hands to myself, and I still managed to have a few girlfriends. Otoh, I'm sure I harassed a few girls when I was a teenager. Grew out of it.

Shucks, figuring out when you can approach and when a woman is receptive to one's advances, that's Darwinism. Survival of the fittest. So long, suckers.

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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:27 am

Honestly, of you're too dumb to know when a woman does or doesn't appreciate your attention and advances, you're too dumb to breed. Sit back, observe, lurk, try to achieve some understanding. Or, you know, just parrot far right talking points to try to discredit women with justifiable complaints
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:05 am

you're too dumb to breed


Yep. Men are stronger and faster; so, they are the ones who chase, but women get to choose. And that's simply because they'll be the ones who'll have to deal with the consequences.

I think this whole debate centers around the ability of a woman to say "No" at any point of an interaction with a man. That covers everything from inappropriate hugs to pats on the bum to rape. It does not, otoh, cover anything done voluntarily.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby RobP3 on Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:38 am

Steve James wrote:
you're too dumb to breed


Yep. Men are stronger and faster; so, they are the ones who chase, but women get to choose. And that's simply because they'll be the ones who'll have to deal with the consequences.

I think this whole debate centers around the ability of a woman to say "No" at any point of an interaction with a man. That covers everything from inappropriate hugs to pats on the bum to rape. It does not, otoh, cover anything done voluntarily.


I think the debate also centres around what is "normal" behaviour and, for a long time, it was normal behaviour for women to have to expect and put up with getting felt up and all the rest of it in the workplace. That creates a certain environment and perhaps an expectation that women are purely there for a man to grope, regardless of her wishes. It's an enabling process that, potentially, leads to more serious problems later on.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:37 am

I think that "acceptable" is more precise than "normal" or expected behavior. I agree with you that women have had to accept bad male behavior toward them. That also includes how women who claim they've been raped are treated. Unfortunately, it's normal for women not to report incidents of sexual abuse because they are embarrassed, ashamed, and know they'll probably be blamed. If it was/is true for rape, it has certainly been true for lesser forms of sexual abuse, and abuse in general. But, it's not normal, and most men I know don't do it. Otoh, I've known a few who do. They know it's wrong, but they'll often say that "all men do it." Nope. And, all men don't worry about false accusations.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:20 pm

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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby northern_mantis on Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:28 am

[quote="Steve James"]I think that "acceptable" is more precise than "normal" or expected behavior. I agree with you that women have had to accept bad male behavior toward them. That also includes how women who claim they've been raped are treated. Unfortunately, it's normal for women not to report incidents of sexual abuse because they are embarrassed, ashamed, and know they'll probably be blamed. If it was/is true for rape, it has certainly been true for lesser forms of sexual abuse, and abuse in general. But, it's not normal, and most men I know don't do it. Otoh, I've known a few who do. They know it's wrong, but they'll often say that "all men do it." Nope. And, all men don't worry about false accusations.[/qune

But you should worry. As I have said on a previous thread, according to my solicitor close to 100% of divorce cases come with an accusation against the man. That is the way things are done because there is no consequence for the accuser even when they're proven to be untrue. So be ready to prove your innocence because that is what is required (not innocent until proven guilty).

Being a good person and following a legal and moral code is not enough to keep you safe. Yeah the chances are slim, but so are the chances of your house burning down but I bet you insure it.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:12 am

But you should worry. As I have said on a previous thread, according to my solicitor close to 100% of divorce cases come with an accusation against the man. That is the way things are done because there is no consequence for the accuser even when they're proven to be untrue. So be ready to prove your innocence because that is what is required (not innocent until proven guilty).


"Close to 100% of divorce cases" do not involve claims of marital rape. That's for sure.
And, apart from being another passive attack on women's issues in general, have nothing to do with sexual harassment in the workplace.

Well, neither does male rape, female incarceration rates, feminism, female domestic violence, divorce, or any of the other "what abouts" that have been brought up.

Sorry, I still don't worry. I've been divorced twice. I'm still friendly with both ex-wives. If I were pissed at anyone, it'd be at the lawyers. So, I don't put any faith at all in what your barrister says.

But, is there anybody on the board who has been charged with rape before, during, or after marriage. How about those of you who have been raped? Do you have personal stories, instead of media reports? I've heard people complain about women coming forward too much, from people who claim that none of the women in their lives complain of harassment.

Personally, I think the over-reaction today is on the part of those who whine and complain about women's concerns and complains. HTFU. Yeah, "you" might be accused falsely of something one day. Get used to it. It's been going on a long time. Being considered "guilty" until proven innocent is nothing new in the US. In NYC, yesterday, a guy was set free after 30 years in jail for a rape he didn't commit. The two guys who confessed said he had nothing to do with it. But, that didn't matter because the DA wanted a conviction. Just Google "man freed after __ years" for rape and there'll be pages of examples that go back decades.

Why the big bleeding hearts over the falsely accused now? Pure political shtick. No, it wasn't better "back then." It won't be better if women just stay quiet, either. I have daughters and grand-daughters, and I don't want them to feel they have to put up with anyone's bs. Men will have to live with that. Boys will have to grow up to be successful with women.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Michael on Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:59 am

RobP3 wrote:
Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:And my point is that, while there may be some very small amount of that, it's blown out of proportion and the motives behind that are highly suspect.
This.

How are the motivations of the 13 women in the article suspect?

Some pesky figures again.

"Research for the Home Office suggests that only 4 per cent of cases of sexual violence reported to the UK police are found or suspected to be false. Studies carried out in Europe and in the US indicate rates of between 2 per cent and 6 per cent."

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/false-sexual-violence-assault-rape-allegations-truth-rare-international-day-for-the-elimination-of-a8077876.html

Every accusation of sexual assault should be properly investigated by the police.

The number of sexual assault allegations found to be false is estimated to be around 5% if you average the stats. The number of sexual assault claims that are proven to be true in court is around 2-3%. That means there is a huge gray area of unknowns about those which are reported (90+% unproven to be either false or true) and another area of unknowns for those unreported assaults. This is the proper context for looking at the statistics, that false claims are numerically greater than proven claims. I think this shows the complexity of dealing with this problem as I doubt there are many other categories of crime with this kind of low conviction rate.

I think the debate also centres around what is "normal" behaviour and, for a long time, it was normal behaviour for women to have to expect and put up with getting felt up and all the rest of it in the workplace. That creates a certain environment and perhaps an expectation that women are purely there for a man to grope, regardless of her wishes. It's an enabling process that, potentially, leads to more serious problems later on.


Rob, I'm just floored by your statement that women (you've known??) have worked in places where they have to expect and have put up with being groped. I'm almost the same age as you (I was born in '68) and I have never seen or heard of such a place in all my life.

I have never heard a woman ever say she worked in such an environment, so WTF? Am I really supposed to believe this? Human resources doesn't exist in the UK? No labour laws? No criminal laws? What??? Or were you just referencing the Elizabethan era of a sudden?

If this is true, then I see why we're coming at this from such different angles.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby northern_mantis on Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:59 pm

I agree with you Michael, behaviour like that has never been acceptable in any place I have experienced in my lifetime. In fact it is quite the opposite in that casual sexism towards men is laughed off by men and women alike and sexism towards women just doesn't exist, guys know it's more than their jobs worth. As ever I would say where is the evidence, not statistics but evidence. How hard would it be with the tech that is available to film/audio record/print some evidence. Yet we see only unfounded accusations.

In my workplace there is women with half naked men as their wallpaper on the computer. Casual sexism against men in written communications. I've simply photographed and printed it as necessary in case I ever want to act on it.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:14 pm

So, is the argument now that sexual harassment doesn't exist? Or, is it that men are harassed as much by women? Or is it that women are really okay with it, and that the ones who complain now ... are what exactly?

This sounds like the classic gaslight, though. It must be all in their imaginations.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Michael on Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:43 pm

Steve James wrote:This sounds like the classic gaslight, though. It must be all in their imaginations.

No, it's definitely not in their imagination. Sexual harassment happens to women in the workplace, but the norm in Western countries is that there is a remedy. In fact a single comment or non-verbal gesture can either lose your job or end your advancement in that company. Of course it also happens to men. Northern_mantis said if it happens to men, it's laughed off, but how common is that? One response comes to mind.

I don't think this is off-topic because the topic is both sexual assault and harassment, as well as social conditions around it, so here is a clip from this year's great documentary "The Red Pill", made by a lifelong, award-winning-feminist film-maker named Cassie Jaye, who began making this docu about rape culture in the USA and ended up leaving the ranks of the feminists and showing another side of the coin regarding men's rights activists.

In this clip that did not make the final cut, Cassie interviews an engineer from HP who says, "...men have no rights in the work place..." and tells his 8 minute story.

Has Feminism in Silicon Valley Gone Too Far? | Steve Head



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye4fAZTkvNg

Steve, you asked what's the argument. The argument is how are we reacting to widespread sexual abuse and harassment in the entertainment industry and politics, and is the reaction developing into social media witch hunts that circumvent the legal process, both civil and criminal?

This question has already come up in regard to the the Title 9 campus rape tribunals of the past several years that became obvious kangaroo courts where an accusation alone had too much power and some of the most outrageous cases, like lying Ivy League mattress girl Emma Sulkowicz (sp?), fully supported in her lies and one-sided witch hunt by the sisterhood in the institution, showed how serious the problem has become. The very questionable "statistics" about an absurd "rape culture" that are provided as support and justification for these campus kangaroo courts are also part of the problem and usually passed off as fact by metoo hashtaggers who believe and say that women are better than men, and also claim women never or almost never abuse men.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby jimmy on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:19 pm


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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:31 pm

is the reaction developing into social media witch hunts that circumvent the legal process, both civil and criminal?


"Social media witch hunt" for whom, men in general? That was/is the thrust of your argument. In effect, because women are claiming harassment, men are the victims. The claim that "men have no rights in the workplace" is absurd, but it might seem that way to men who aren't powerful or able to benefit from being in a powerful position in the workplace. He's stating resentment that he is powerless. However, his feelings would not even be a reason to reduce anyone else's power. He is not supposed to be a Weinstein, Lauer, Cosby, etc, who were clearly more powerful than the women who worked for them.

The #metoo thing has been around since October, 2017. There have only been firings and a few threats of rape charges. It's just too bad that it makes men uncomfortable. And, there has not been a single rational reason given why any woman should not be able to accuse any of their bosses for inappropriate behavior. We can easily debate the exact definition of sexual harassment, and whether it merits firing or criminal charges. There is no validity to the argument that they should not speak (in a free speech country).

If you want them to speak up when it's true, then you haven't had the time to judge whether they've been telling the truth. If you disbelieve simply because they make the claim, ok. I don't think anyone here knows enough about more than one of the cases to be able to make a decision. All we know is that women are coming forward ... now and in the last 2 months, and it is scaring enough men to assert they're being victimized. Well, if the ratio were 50/50, and only half of the claims were true, that'd be enough to make it an issue.

And, I'm still waiting for some more guys to complain about being harassed by women. I'm sure y'all are out there. Sorry you haven't felt free to express your feelings. #metooman You can do it now.
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