UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby vadaga on Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:32 pm

how time flies. I can't believe it's already 8 years since the events that happened in a province that shall not be named, I was in China at that time FWIW
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:11 pm

I remember a few years ago when we had a thread on VPNs and the site became inaccessible from inside the Great Firewall without one for a few weeks or something. Didn't want that to happen again.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby grzegorz on Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:03 am

Michael wrote:On the pragmatic side, there's not a thing any of them could do about their govt as long as it has international financial support from the word's multi-national corporations, so maybe ignorance is bliss.


This seems to be true in many countries now.

In this country money is speech. Like China most Americans do not agree with the decisions the government is making but what can you do?

I now appreciate and understand how mainlanders live and feel. And no I am not just talking about the current administration as much as the fact that the corporations control our government but what can you do?

I stay updated and informed on everything but outside of that I don't bother discussing these things outside of my home because people turn to sources which confirm what they already believe and everyone is living in their own bubble, much like China. But in China too I think people know, perhaps minus the details, that the government, the system and the police are all crooks but there is nothing they can do about and I think they know that discussing these things with foreingers is completely pointless.

What csn do? I think is more of the attitude than ignorance in China at least this was my experience when the Chinese would let down their guard and open up to me. I don't think I knew many Chinese mainlanders who believed the China of CCTV9 was real.

Yet I have met Ameicans who believe everything they hear on RT. Oh! the irony...

I still read a lot stay informed on all things political but wonder if my time would be better spent doing something else.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby grzegorz on Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:21 pm

Another reason why the Chinese hide their politics.

Swedish bookseller 'snatched by Chinese agents from train'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... gui-minhai
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:49 am

Yeah, I saw that yesterday, as well as a bunch of other stuff this week.

Guy's been locked up two years, they let him out and he's hanging in Shanghai, then he goes missing, then he turns up and some Swedish consular officials are taking him on the high speed train for a doctor's appointment in Beijing since he developed ALS symptoms in custody, and they snatch him again.

As far as I can tell from a few high profile cases the past two years, the Swedes have no pull for their citizens in China, and they really seem like they just roll over for anything Beijing wanna do to their citizens.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Trick on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:47 am

What can the Swedish government do? Whith a prime minister that is the leader of the Labour Party(social democrats) who has never done a hard days labour in his so far life, a defence minister who refused(refuses) to bear arms and therefore never went throu the mandatory Armed forces draft, a police chief that was an outspoken anarchist(probably hold such thought still cause the current police force seem to be in chaos)
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Trick on Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:34 am

Before we shed tears for the bookman, From Wikipedia......."Gui returned to China in 1999 and started a daughter company in Ningbo for a Swedish company known in Chinese as Tangyou (唐友), offering air purification products.[25][26] Gui was involved in a drink-driving incident in Ningbo in December 2003 in which a 23-year-old girl was killed while crossing the road.[23][15] The victim's mother disagreed with the police investigation report that her daughter should bear secondary responsibility for not paying attention to traffic, since she had heard from witnesses that the car had been speeding, so she risked her life to experiment on herself with the help of her son and a driver for 10 days, demonstrating that the driving speed had to exceed 110 km/h for the accident to occur. She appealed to the Zhejiang Provincial Public Security Department, which upon reexamination concluded that Gui should bear full responsibility for the incident in May 2004. Her experiment was widely reported in the Chinese media. The victim's parents later filed a civil lawsuit against Gui for compensation.[27][28] The Ningbo Municipal Intermediate People's Court ruled the following August that Gui had committed a crime, for which Gui received a two-year suspended jail term.[9][15][29] He then departed for Germany, thus violated his probation terms.[23] In 2004, after leaving China, he worked for a German affiliate of Nordpool Consulting.[30]"
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby grzegorz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:06 am

Funny in China my opinion is different but outside of China I understand why it is the way it is.

I have also heard that there were incidents of soldiers getting roughed up in the outskirts of Beijing which may or may not be true but the fact that the rumor was out more than likely caused a panic in the leadership.

As much as I would prefer not to admit it I don't think things would have been much different in London, Washington DC or Moscow if the government felt as if an overthrow was about to occur. Many foreigners don't realize that every major city in China had people out on the streets. The whole country waa shut down.

We Americans like to preach and take the high road yet we actually have one of the most corrupt govenements in the world.

Michael wrote:As far as I can tell from a few high profile cases the past two years, the Swedes have no pull for their citizens in China, and they really seem like they just roll over for anything Beijing wanna do to their citizens.


I don't believe an American's fate would be much different except of course there is a strong economic relationship between the two countries for the most part I can see a Yank getting ganked for their politics published in Chinese.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby grzegorz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:24 am

Trick wrote:Before we shed tears for the bookman, From Wikipedia......."Gui returned to China in 1999 and started a daughter company in Ningbo for a Swedish company known in Chinese as Tangyou (唐友), offering air purification products.[25][26] Gui was involved in a drink-driving incident in Ningbo in December 2003 in which a 23-year-old girl was killed while crossing the road.[23][15] The victim's mother disagreed with the police investigation report that her daughter should bear secondary responsibility for not paying attention to traffic, since she had heard from witnesses that the car had been speeding, so she risked her life to experiment on herself with the help of her son and a driver for 10 days, demonstrating that the driving speed had to exceed 110 km/h for the accident to occur. She appealed to the Zhejiang Provincial Public Security Department, which upon reexamination concluded that Gui should bear full responsibility for the incident in May 2004. Her experiment was widely reported in the Chinese media. The victim's parents later filed a civil lawsuit against Gui for compensation.[27][28] The Ningbo Municipal Intermediate People's Court ruled the following August that Gui had committed a crime, for which Gui received a two-year suspended jail term.[9][15][29] He then departed for Germany, thus violated his probation terms.[23] In 2004, after leaving China, he worked for a German affiliate of Nordpool Consulting.[30]"


Thanks for the back story.

Anyone who has lived in China should undertand how brutal the country is to its own but most laowei wrongly believe they have a get out of jail card until they get locked in jail.

My point was that if they can do this to a high profile foreigner who has a whole nation behind them trying to fight for them to get out of a jail and they can't get them out then why would a Chinese citizen ever even mention the Tiananmen square incident?
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby grzegorz on Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:30 pm

Michael wrote:As far as I can tell from a few high profile cases the past two years, the Swedes have no pull for their citizens in China, and they really seem like they just roll over for anything Beijing wanna do to their citizens.


They have a British citizen too.

Gui’s original disappearance – and that of four other Hong Kong booksellers, including one British citizen – was widely seen as part of a broader crackdown on Communist party foes that has unfolded since Xi Jinping became China’s leader in November 2012. 
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:02 am

grzegorz wrote:We Americans like to preach and take the high yet we actually have one of the most corrupt govenements in the world.

At least because of the way you phrased this, I gotta strongly disagree, especially in the context of discussing the PRC.

if corruption is being compared, then are you saying this based on more of a personal viewpoint as someone who's lived in a few different countries?

Living in China gives me the perspective that the US govt is one of the least relatively corrupt in the world. There are some attempts at objective measurement for this, as well as people's desire to immigrate to the US being a subjective indicator that it is less corrupt.

Certainly I'm aware of some of the problems and there are some, perhaps many of which I'm not aware or only partially aware, but I don't think there's more than a handful of countries I'd prefer to live in if I were looking for a middle class life in a stable society with low corruption. But since I'm not looking for that, maybe my view is distorted.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:11 am

Trick wrote:Before we shed tears for the bookman, From Wikipedia......."Gui returned to China in 1999 and started a daughter company in Ningbo for a Swedish company known in Chinese as Tangyou (唐友), offering air purification products.[25][26] Gui was involved in a drink-driving incident in Ningbo in December 2003 in which a 23-year-old girl was killed while crossing the road.[23][15] The victim's mother disagreed with the police investigation report that her daughter should bear secondary responsibility for not paying attention to traffic, since she had heard from witnesses that the car had been speeding, so she risked her life to experiment on herself with the help of her son and a driver for 10 days, demonstrating that the driving speed had to exceed 110 km/h for the accident to occur. She appealed to the Zhejiang Provincial Public Security Department, which upon reexamination concluded that Gui should bear full responsibility for the incident in May 2004. Her experiment was widely reported in the Chinese media. The victim's parents later filed a civil lawsuit against Gui for compensation.[27][28] The Ningbo Municipal Intermediate People's Court ruled the following August that Gui had committed a crime, for which Gui received a two-year suspended jail term.[9][15][29] He then departed for Germany, thus violated his probation terms.[23] In 2004, after leaving China, he worked for a German affiliate of Nordpool Consulting.[30]"

That was all put in the wiki long after his rendition from Thailand. At the time he and others from the book store were abducted, some of the reports were that Gui was not in China when that hit and run was alleged, but I have no way to confirm that and did not follow up that part of the story at the time so I don't know and it may be true, may be not, but for me all the claims by the PRC were tainted by the confirmed lies, the violations of HK law, the motive to shut down the book store, the forced TV confessions, etc.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Steve James on Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:48 am

Depends on what you mean by corrupt. The dictionary says:

cor·rupt
adjective

1. having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"unscrupulous logging companies assisted by corrupt officials"
synonyms: dishonest, unscrupulous, dishonorable, unprincipled, unethical, amoral, untrustworthy, venal, underhanded, double-dealing, fraudulent, bribable, criminal, illegal, unlawful, nefarious;

2. (of a text or a computer database or program) made unreliable by errors or alterations.

verb
1. cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"there is a continuing fear of firms corrupting politicians in the search for contracts"

2. change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.
"Epicurus's teachings have since been much corrupted"
synonyms: alter, tamper with, interfere with, bastardize, debase, adulterate
"the apostolic writings had been corrupted"


But, ya see, "America" was more than a country; it was an ideal. China has no ideal except to help China. That's greed, and that's almost normal. "America first" is no different. Afa corruption of ideals, America stands without a peer. Once upon a time, the world looked up and to America because of its ideals.

Are American politicians less greedy, self-interested, or ready to throw their constituents (i.e., citizens) under the bus for personal gain? :) Is political corruption worse in China? I dunno, but I have no reason to believe that people in the US are no less corrupt or criminal.

I also think that people come here because it's easier to be criminal, and I'm not talking about Latin Americans, either. I don't think it's as easy to go to China and start a criminal organization. That doesn't make China better. Here, you can buy whatever you want, even influence in politics, if you have the cash. Do Chinese politicians get "political contributions" from businesses? American politicians do? Are corporations considered "individuals" in China?

Naw, the US has been pretending to be righteous and exceptional. When it's always been corrupt and ordinary. There definitely are more corrupt countries, but they're corrupt in their own way. NKorea prints counterfeit US bills (supernotes). Some would argue that Russia is a kleptocracy, but that's not a problem -as long as one goes along with the program.

And, let's not talk about the corruption of "Christianity." I.e., using it to justify crimes that would disgrace a nation of savages. Anyway, like I said, it depends on your definition of corrupt.
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby Michael on Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:42 am

Steve James wrote:Are American politicians less greedy, self-interested, or ready to throw their constituents (i.e., citizens) under the bus for personal gain? :) Is political corruption worse in China? I dunno, but I have no reason to believe that people in the US are no less corrupt or criminal.

In China, local bureaucrats literally rip infants from mothers' arms and throw them under the wheels of their cars and crush them to death because a fee or a bribe for the second child was not paid. I'm just gonna leave it to whoever's interested to search that if they want to read the easy to find English article. This was reported in English within the past few years and is not some distant event from Mao's time, and while not exactly common, this kind of thing is not rare and only seems so because of information control. Literally throwing people under buses or bulldozers also done.

I don't think it's as easy to go to China and start a criminal organization.

No, it's not, and that's because the criminals who run the place don't tolerate competition, especially from foreigners.

Naw, the US has been pretending to be righteous and exceptional. When it's always been corrupt and ordinary.

I think China and the USA have this in common because when you have such a large country/market/culture, you can basically create your own reality and maintain it the way China has often done by keeping others out, or the way the USA does, by exporting it. Both countries are so big they've got this in common: they're legends in their own minds. But whose gonna change their minds?
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Re: UK Ambassador Cable Says 10K killed at Tiananmen

Postby grzegorz on Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:43 am

Michael wrote:
grzegorz wrote:We Americans like to preach and take the high yet we actually have one of the most corrupt govenements in the world.

At least because of the way you phrased this, I gotta strongly disagree, especially in the context of discussing the PRC.

if corruption is being compared, then are you saying this based on more of a personal viewpoint as someone who's lived in a few different countries?

Living in China gives me the perspective that the US govt is one of the least relatively corrupt in the world. There are some attempts at objective measurement for this, as well as people's desire to immigrate to the US being a subjective indicator that it is less corrupt.

Certainly I'm aware of some of the problems and there are some, perhaps many of which I'm not aware or only partially aware, but I don't think there's more than a handful of countries I'd prefer to live in if I were looking for a middle class life in a stable society with low corruption. But since I'm not looking for that, maybe my view is distorted.


Dude! You must have left a long time ago...
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