Some powerful shit

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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby BruceP on Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:53 pm

Steve James wrote:The Ruger I meant was the 1022, but my point was about the damage. The issue was not the caliber. And, I think you know that


OK, thanks

But the issue is the cartridge (what you're calling, 'caliber') and not the rifle.


All three of these rifles fire the same round as the AR-15:

This is a Baikal IZH 18MH single shot rifle chambered in .223/5.56
Image

This is a Mossberg MVP bolt action rifle chambered in the same .223/5.56
Image

This is a Ruger Mini-14 semi-auto rifle chambered in .223/5.56
Image

They will all produce the same wounds as the AR-15

The 5.56x45 NATO round has been known since the 70s as, "The Tumbling Terror", due to the wounding it created in enemy soldiers during the police action your country was engaging in SE Asia at that time. The bullet is going so fast, and is so light, that as soon as it hits something like a leaf, branch, rib, solid organ, etc, it veers off its trajectory and tumbles around until it runs out of impetus and stops.

So, it's wrong to malign the gun for the wounding the cartridge was designed to create. The AR-15 is a restricted firearm in my country that can only be purchased by people who possess a restricted firearms license and must have special permission to transport it to and from a certified gun range. The Ruger Mini-14 is non-restricted, meaning anyone with a regular firearms license can buy one off the shelf with no waiting period or other permissions, and are able to transport it anywhere they please. None of that makes sense to me, but whatever

The 10/22 is a semi-auto chambered in .22 long-rifle. It is inherently inaccurate (for hunting and survival/subsistence) and the later models have had reliability issues (failure to feed - failure to eject - failure to fire) which can be corrected with proper tuning. There are much better choices for self-defense than 22lr, and even for a survivalist.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby windwalker on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:38 pm

My first contact with the M-16 in the 70s,
wondered if it was a practice rifle...22 cal...the round was very small compared to
30-06. We used to joke about the M-16 made by mattel, made by "Mattel" a toy company was stamped on
the plastic handles,,,the only part mattel made although we didn't know it at the time...young GIs no internet back then.. :P

Image

some development requirements for the M-16 round.

Early development work began in 1957. A project to create a small-calibre, high-velocity (SCHV) firearm was created. Eugene Stoner of Armalite was invited to scale down the AR-10 (7.62mm) design. Winchester was also invited to participate.[9][4] The parameters that were requested by CONARC were:

.22 Caliber
Bullet exceeding supersonic speed at 500 yards[9][4]
Rifle weight of 6 lb
Magazine capacity of 20 rounds
Select fire for both semi-automatic and fully automatic use
Penetration of US steel helmet through one side at 500 yards
Penetration of .135-inch steel plate at 500 yards
Accuracy and ballistics equal to M2 ball ammunition (.30-06 Garand)
Wounding ability equal to M1 Carbine [4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

In 1977, NATO members signed an agreement to select a second, smaller caliber cartridge to replace the 7.62×51mm NATO cartridge.[10] Of the cartridges tendered, the .223 Remington (M193) was the basis for a new design created by FN Herstal. The FN-created cartridge was named 5.56×45mm NATO with a military designation of SS109 in NATO and M855 in the U.S.[11] These new SS109 ball cartridges required a 228 mm (1-in-9") twist rate while adequately stabilizing the longer L110 tracer projectile required an even faster 178 mm (1-in-7") twist rate.[4]

The Belgian 62 gr SS109 round was chosen for standardization as the second NATO standard rifle cartridge which led to the 1980 STANAG 4172. The SS109 used a 62 gr open tip bullet with a seven grain steel core for better penetration against lightly armored targets, specifically to meet a requirement that the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a WWII U.S. M1 helmet at 800 meters (which was also the requirement for the 7.62mm). It had a slightly lower muzzle velocity but better long-range performance due to higher sectional density and a superior drag coefficient. This requirement made the SS109 (M855) round less capable of fragmentation than the M193 and was considered more humane.[citation needed][12]

The .223 Remington cartridge inspired an international tendency toward relatively small-sized, lightweight, high-velocity military service cartridges that allow a soldier to carry more ammunition for the same weight compared to their larger and heavier predecessor cartridges, have favourable maximum point-blank range or "battle zero" characteristics, and produce relatively low bolt thrust and free recoil impulse, favouring lightweight arms design and automatic fire accuracy.[8][13][14] Similar intermediate cartridges were developed and adopted by the Soviet Union in 1974 (5.45×39mm)[15] and by the People's Republic of China in 1987 (5.8×42mm).
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby windwalker on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:56 pm

The 5.56×45mm NATO SS109/M855 cartridge (NATO: SS109; U.S.: M855) with standard 62 gr. lead core bullets with steel penetrator will penetrate approximately 38 to 51 cm (15 to 20 in) into soft tissue in ideal circumstances.

As with all spitzer shaped projectiles it is prone to yaw in soft tissue. However, at impact velocities above roughly 762 m/s (2,500 ft/s), it may yaw and then fragment at the cannelure (the crimping groove around the cylinder of the bullet).[25] These fragments can disperse through flesh and bone, inflicting additional internal injuries.[26]

Fragmentation, if and when it occurs, imparts much greater damage to human tissue than bullet dimensions and velocities would suggest. This fragmentation effect is highly dependent on velocity, and therefore barrel length: short-barreled carbines generate less muzzle velocity and therefore lose wounding effectiveness at much shorter ranges than longer-barreled rifles.[27]

Proponents of the hydrostatic shock theory contend that the shockwave from a high-velocity bullet results in wounding effects beyond the tissue directly crushed and torn by the bullet and fragments.[28][29][30] However, others argue that tissue damage from hydrostatic shock is a myth.

Critics argue that sonic pressure waves do not cause tissue disruption and that temporary cavity formation is the actual cause of tissue disruption mistakenly attributed to sonic pressure waves.[31]


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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Steve James on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:02 pm

So, it's wrong to malign the gun for the wounding the cartridge was designed to create. The AR-15 is a restricted firearm in my country that can only be purchased by people who possess a restricted firearms license and must have special permission to transport it to and from a certified gun range. The Ruger Mini-14 is non-restricted, meaning anyone with a regular firearms license can buy one off the shelf with no waiting period or other permissions, and are able to transport it anywhere they please. None of that makes sense to me, but whatever


I have never maligned the weapon. I have questioned its necessity. You're absolutely right that there are other rifles that can fire the same cartridge, and they're legal. All the examples you give are bolt action or single shot.

In my country, the AR-15 is not restricted. Just today, some stores mandated that they wouldn't sell to people under 21. I think that's reasonable. But, I would also limit large capacity magazines and devices that increased firing rate for AR-type weapons --totally because they're unnecessary. If someone demonstrates a need, then I have no problem with almost any weapon.

I'm all for trap and skeet shooting, target shooting, licensed hunting. And, as I told Mike, I'm not even in favor of banning the AR-15. I don't think that will stop mass shooting. However, I don't think that banning them would break the second amendment. I do think the notion that firearms will solve a mental health issue illustrates the problem.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby windwalker on Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:51 pm

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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Michael on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:20 am

I don't think banning the AR-15 would break the 2nd amendment either. The 10 year ban already happened, apparently had no effect. At this point, though, banning particular weapons is politically difficult because it looks like a slippery slope to, dun, dun, dun, endgame.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:48 am

It's the people who are the problem. The AR-15 does not solve or address that problem except when it kills people. No gun does.

The 2nd amendment is abstract. The school shootings are concrete. But, if we prevent someone mentally ill from owning a firearm we are infringing on his rights. There would be a good reason, though. Public safety.

Afa school safety, when I went to kindergarten, there were no school shootings. Nobody suggested that it was because school personnel were armed. Nobody said anything bad about ARs because nobody walked into schools to commit mass murder every year with on. So, the reason people want to ban them now is because murderers have used them. Of course, they work very well.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby BruceP on Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:27 pm

Thanks for the reply, Steve. And thank you for the effort you've put into making yourself understood. It's too bad this thread started with Graham's "hero" turning his rifle into an illegal firearm. Chicken Little strikes again...

But the discussion has shown the need for education and knowledge among most who posted, what with all the misinformation and just plain bad information being repeated here. It's a glimpse of what's wrong, overall, with the 'debate' going on in your country. People not really knowing what they're talking about, arguing with people that do know what they're talking about, and those that do know are accused of being stupid, closed-minded, heartless, 'redneck', etc, by those who don't.

Steve James wrote:All the examples you give are bolt action or single shot


The Ruger Mini-14 in the last pic I posted is a semi-automatic rifle - like the AR-15.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:10 pm

People not really knowing what they're talking about, arguing with people that do know what they're talking about, and those that do know are accused of being stupid, closed-minded, heartless, 'redneck', etc, by those who don't.


I hope I haven't called anyone any names. I don't pay much attention to them anyway, even when they're about me.

The Ruger Mini-14 in the last pic I posted is a semi-automatic rifle - like the AR-15.


Yup, you're right.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:31 am

Gee, if it's all about the cartridge then why are most of these shootings carried out with a particular platform. And, why would the military have the platform designed and adopted? Clearly, the platform makes a difference, too. Another disingenuous argument.

Also, who called anyone a redneck? Did I miss that, too?

There seems to be a lot of assumption going on in this thread, and you know what they say about that: it's the mother of all... :-X
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Michael on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:19 am

Whoever started this thread is probably a Russian bot.

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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:38 am

Total non-sequitur and also another assumption. Russia and the election might have been an issue, but not the main one. The Dems are continuing to screw the pooch by focusing on it and the non-FOX media is just whipping up second wave McCarthyism.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that we disagree about is the effectiveness of vigilantism. Are there other things, too? Bruce is just coming in and throwing sand in the air after puffing his chest out. Not impressed, which is strange, because I am usually impressed by Bruce--but that's more when he is talking about his winter excursions.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Michael on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:44 am

Just making a joke.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:53 am

Jokes are all good. I didn't take offense, I just think that it did make some assumptions, just as others on this thread have. Unfortunately, in the age of doxing and where my nascent career is at, I'm not about to post vids or pics of me to verify my experiences on this subject. I'd simply like to reiterate that I'm not a liberal. I do think that Dmitri summed it up some time ago on another thread (maybe facebook) revealing political leaning and alignment.
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Re: Some powerful shit

Postby Michael on Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:15 am

That's all good. I'm just trying to draw Graham in here cause I think it's kinda funny he starts a thread and everybody else is going at it while he's back in Blighty with Pistopher Steele. There might be a connection.
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