North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:39 pm

Yes! Oh the irony!

Forget Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands. They are not even a states and they are to blame for their own mismanagement.

But! We must give aid to Valenzuela! People are starving there.

Yeah right...
Last edited by grzegorz on Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby grzegorz on Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 am

Watching the Cohen testimony I can see why Trump is running off with Kim.
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby grzegorz on Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:44 am

There is a book called Everything Trump Touches Dies. Does anything more need to be said? Sure enough he failed to get nukes from Kim.

A national security correspondent put it best when he said that Trump just couldn't imagine that Kim would choose nukes over hotels, beach front property and money.

So much for that nobel, right?

All things being equal I give Trump points for his efforts but to me it just proves that Trump is out of league. More and more he reminds me of the foolish manager from the show the Office.

I suppose some would say the good news is that Kim isn't test launching missles but obviously and as always with North Korea the next presidential will deal with this headache.
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:13 pm

I'm still not sure why we can't end the embargo and sanctions on Cuba --with its oppressive government-- through talks; Cuba doesn't even have nukes. Otoh, we sell weapons of destruction to Saudi Arabia, which is hardly a democracy.

Afa NKorea, Kim doesn't want to rule the world. He doesn't even want to spread communism like his grand-dad. He just wants to keep power, and his nukes are his bargaining chips. He could sell nuclear grade material to those who'd harm us. However, our ideological enemies are also the enemies of the PRC. At least the PRC sees it that way. It would be very unhappy if Little Brother did something to upset the peach cart.

I'd say that the key players in this situation are all Asian. The US will be most secure if the North can reconcile with the South, and when the Japanese feel that their issues have been resolved (i.e., the abductees), and when the Koreans are satisfied that the Japanese have acknowledged committing atrocities against them during the war. At most, we will hopefully arrange for the return of prisoners and detainees.

Today, the looming nuclear crises are between India and Pakistan over Kashmir and possibly the Russian Fed conflict with Ukraine.
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby grzegorz on Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:43 pm

grzegorz wrote:You think Trump brought up Otto?

Image

We all got played...but some actually voted for this...


Looks like Trump just threw Otto under the bus.

Watch "Kim Jong Un 'felt badly' about Otto Warmbier, Trump says" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/M3kpkVlicOM
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Michael on Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:12 pm

Tulsi Gabbard wrote:Yesterday's failure to come to an agreement on NK's nukes brings me no joy, but rather deep concern. But as I said yesterday on @Hardball, NK will not give up its nukes unless there is a complete re-appraisal of US regime change "foreign policy".
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Michael on Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:20 pm

Tulsi said that after we promised Gaddaffi that if he gave up his WMD's we wouldn't overthrow him, we went ahead and did it, so why would NK give up theirs?

Yesterday Senator Marco Rubio tweeted a picture of before and after regime change Gaddaffi, showing him bloodied just before his death, apparently as a threat to Maduro.

Image


Maybe Kim also received this message. If so, it probably makes it more difficult to negotiate giving up WMD's.
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Steve James on Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:07 pm

Hmm, should we compare the handling of Libya and its results with the handling of Iraq, or Iran, or Panama, or Zaire? Well, we still have troops in Iraq. But, we can agree that the desire for regime change did not begin with the previous administration.

Anyway, Mike, what type of government does NK have?
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Michael on Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:27 pm

I don't know what the devil you're talking about, Steve, but I like Tulsi's message and she's the only anti-war candidate so far for 2020.

She was awesome on The View talking to the warhawks.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w1zf3YyXRI
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Steve James on Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:09 pm

I meant "what type of government is NKorea? I was curious because some would call it communist. You were mentioning regime change, and I was wondering why NK wasn't one of those regimes that we were automatically against. For ex., Venezuela is/was lambasted because it is/was socialist. We even support regime change there. Afaik, Venezuela doesn't have nukes; doesn't support terrorism; isn't threatening its neighbors or the US. Do you agree with Trump on that?

Anyway, as I said, I don't think that appearing friendly means anything. I think being friendly is something that engenders trust. If Kim merely wants peace and will give up his nuclear weapons --of which I'm still skeptical-- and he really trusts Trump, the'd just give them up. He knows that all sanctions would be lifted. Trump said that was Kim's demand (though Kim denied it). So, it seems that any display of friendliness between the two is at best superficial. Kim either distrusts Trump or wants more and is not bargaining in good faith.

Edit: just in:
WASHINGTON - The Pentagon is permanently canceling the large-scale military exercises in South Korea usually held in the spring, U.S. officials said Friday, handing Pyongyang a long-sought concession only days after a summit between President Donald Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un broke up without a deal.

The timing of the decision raised questions about whether Trump was giving away a major piece of leverage over North Korea, which has long denounced the exercises as provocative, and failing to get anything in return.

"Why negotiate with the United States when it makes concessions for free?" Abraham Denmark, a former top Pentagon official during the Obama administration, wrote in a tweet. He said the decision to halt the maneuvers would have "major implications for readiness" of U.S. and South Korean forces.
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Michael on Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:44 am

Okay, I think I got your meaning now. I was confused because, for one thing, the type of government is not the issue. We've done regime change in every kind of govt and claimed to be spreading democracy, lol. Second, I thought we'd been against NK and had been actively planning a regime change there since Bush, Jr. labeled them part of the "axis of evil" (along with Iraq and Iran) in his disgusting post 9/11 you're either with us or the terrorists address.

Anyway, as I said, I don't think that appearing friendly means anything.


You're probably right, but to me it's a glimmer of hope.

There has been some criticism of US regime change in Iraq because it resulted in Iran losing its greatest opponent and that its good fortune was somehow a strategic mistake of US foreign policy, but I think the plan written down and published by the neocons in 1999 said Iran would be regime changed as well, so not a strategic mistake, just a reflection of timing.

General Wesley Clark concisely summarized back in 2007, talking about the US foreign policy to attack seven countries in five years: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Lybia, Somalia, Sudan, Iran.

Clark lists off the 7 countries at about the 2:30 mark.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUCwCgthp_E

Wesley Clark was asked in 2012 about his comments from 2007 and the list of seven countries, and he said in this two minute clip that the US should be a global force for peace and justice. Aww, he left out the American way, faster than a speeding bullet, helping puppies, and feeding hungry orphans.



Wesley Clark confronted on 9/11, Posted by Luke Rudkowski of We Are Change, Sep 10, 2012
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:05 am

It matters because Trump says that socialism is evil... in Venezuela. He also points to the evil of Islamism, but says we can't afford not to sell them weapons to kill Yemenis.

At best, Trump continues the worst aspects of US foreign policy. Remember the previous administration ended some restrictions on Cuba? Trump has deliberately sabotaged them. Why? Because Cuba is communist? Or because he can?

Naw, I don't trust US foreign policy in general, and even less so under Trump.
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Michael on Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:36 am

Sure, Trump or whoever might say the type of government is the issue, but whatever type of govt they have, the US war machine usually falls back on a humanitarian crisis or a violation of human rights to justify its humanitarian intervention and humanitarian bombing. And many people seem to support this rubbish.

To his credit, Obama tried to pull out of Iraq, but the timing was wrong and it helped ISIS, but I don't think he should be blamed for that; he didn't start the wars against Iraq. It seems there's very little even the President can do against the war machine. He is manipulated to continue the policies that, in one form or another, ensure war and weapon sales continue.

Naw, I don't trust US foreign policy in general, and even less so under Trump.

Understandable. There's not a lot of good things happening in US foreign policy and the talk about humanitarian intervention in Venezuela just sounds like the same old regime change pre-game.

Trump reduced the number of US soldiers illegally in Syria, which is a move toward peace, and so is ending the Korean war.

Trump openly questioned the necessity of NATO and tried to repair relations with Russia, which are moves toward peace, and the threat of increased peace to the war machine is the main reason for the investigations about Russian collusion. The military and secret services need an enemy to justify their immense budget, as well as the Pentagon's "loss" of $20+ TRILLION.
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:16 pm

Sure, Trump or whoever might say the type of government is the issue, but whatever type of govt they have, the US war machine usually falls back on a humanitarian crisis or a violation of human rights to justify its humanitarian intervention and humanitarian bombing. And many people seem to support this rubbish.


Don't ignore my point. Trump urges regime change in certain countries because of their governments. When we were discussing Russia and the Ukraine years back, you pointed to its Nazi members. But, right now, the US under Trump is providing assistance to political opponents in Venezuela because of its political system --to justify a "humanitarian intervention." This completely contradicts your premise that Trump is different.
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Re: North Korea South Korea Sitting in a Tree

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:28 pm

Btw, even Eisenhower pointed out that US military policy had become dominated by the supporting industry. I think it's clear that the US does not act militarily on humanitarian grounds, but one the basis of national interest. In fact, national interest --particularly in the age of Trump-- places tangible monetary benefits above moral or humanitarian ones. Yet this is nothing new.
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