Here comes the Judge

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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby middleway on Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:36 am

Don't really have a position on this precise situation tbh.

As a general position, I tend to air on the side of 'Innocent until proven Guilty'. This, along with freedom of speech, are foundation cornerstones of western values, reason and justice.

The modern phenomena pushing back against these things is the biggest danger to our freedom and civility IMO

But my reason for posting is just to point out that Polygraphs are not reliable and should be completely discounted.

To support her statement and version of the events, she took a polygraph exam. She passed.


https://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/5999119/polygraphs-lie-detectors-do-they-work

thanks.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby wiesiek on Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:38 am

anyway
I`m glad , that don`t need to decide,
but
as the side note - bringing up, that :" somebody touch my ass indecently 30 y.a. " looks like pure political gambling
and
even if it is just slander, - doesn`t matter . On this level - he is done /or almost /
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby Peacedog on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:57 am

I once had a conversation with a bunch of Russian Speznatz types when working for the UN about polygraphs. One of them laughed so hard he fell out of his chair.

Always keep in mind that the polygrapher is also a trained interrogator.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:49 am

My first polygraph examiner was es-OSS. They're not lie detectors. The point about the operators being trained is critical. The polygraph only detects stress. Experienced operators use that fact to make observations. The more stress, the easier to observe signs of deception.

Kavanaugh acted like someone who would show signs of deception. Peacedog said that it would be natural for a man who was falsely accused. Otoh, Ford seemed much more composed and direct, which made her seem credible. That's precisely what a polygraph would show, and even observers here (and on FOX) have said so.

However, her credibility is used against her. It's not necessary to discount or dismiss polygraph exams --which are still used precisely because they make people nervous, especially if they're being deceptive. Taking and passing a polygraph doesn't prove anything. Neither taking/passing the exam nor her credible testimony indicate prove that she is LYING. Kavanaugh's denial does not mean he isn't lying or being deceptive.

However, you guys have only given proofs that she is lying, and even called her a liar. I said that I don't know. But, I know that you can't possibly know either. How you can say that it couldn't possibly have happened is just beyond me. Again, the problem is that there doesn't seem to be any way Ford could convince you. Worse, imo, if there were video -of him holding her down with his hands over her mouth-- that wouldn't disqualify him anyway.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby Trick on Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:08 am

Peacedog wrote:I once had a conversation with a bunch of Russian Speznatz types when working for the UN about polygraphs. One of them laughed so hard he fell out of his chair.

Always keep in mind that the polygrapher is also a trained interrogator.

Who of you where wired to the machine ?..........(lame far fetched try of a joke) 8-)
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby Peacedog on Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:37 pm

Basically they were of the opinion that polygraphs were worthless. They elaborated at length on the different ways they could be beaten and manipulated.

Given the ease with which Soviet moles beat polys during the Cold War, I am very inclined to believe them.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:59 pm

One can dispute the validity of the test, but that does not refute the validity or truth of the result. There is no reason for an outside observer to be certain in any way that Ford was lying about the event. If it's asked why a girl would not immediately report something that happened between her and a boy, it's because she won't be believed; and, if she isn't physically harmed, she won't be taken seriously.

The issue is really whether he was honest in his testimony. I don't think, and never have thought, that his actions as a 17 year-old automatically disqualified him from any given position. If he'd said that he was drunk and didn't remember, he'd probably be forgiven. If he's lied, however, he's not trustworthy. If she lied, otoh, she can be prosecuted; but, she's not up for any position.

Oh, Kelly Anne Conway just revealed that she'd been molested in some way. It's not a partisan issue. If it were, Cosby wouldn't be in jail; Weinstein wouldn't be on the way; and Rose and Lauer would still have a job.
Last edited by Steve James on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:33 pm

Steve James wrote:However, you guys have only given proofs that she is lying, and even called her a liar. I said that I don't know. But, I know that you can't possibly know either. How you can say that it couldn't possibly have happened is just beyond me. Again, the problem is that there doesn't seem to be any way Ford could convince you. Worse, imo, if there were video -of him holding her down with his hands over her mouth-- that wouldn't disqualify him anyway.


How aboutl start by providing any evidence that supports her allegations. Innocent until proven guilty seems to have escaped you.

What poof is there that something happened to her other than what she's alleged with no corroborating poof.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:37 pm

One can dispute the validity of the test, but that does not refute the validity or truth of the result


Like the body changes as a result to being stressed.
When I took the test, the examiner had to do it a couple of times.

No reaction to the question asked. I had unconsciously put myself in a meditative state.

The test itself is not admissible in a court of law as evidence.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:46 pm

. Allegedly:
1. FBI report is done, congress has it
2. Implicates Feinstein & Ford (with media/preplanning)
3. Clears Kavanaugh


If true should be interesting.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:22 pm

What poof is there that something happened to her other than what she's alleged with no corroborating poof.


What proof would you accept? Besides, again, the issue is not her. It's only whether he is being honest. I don't think it would matter to many if it were true --and I've said that several times. It's a farce to even question him about it. Showing his dick or pussy grabbing wouldn't disqualify him from high office.

And, I also think that every man with a daughter would at least consider that her complaints were true. Every father I know dreads the days their daughter goes away to college --just because of beer drinking frat boys like Brett. Like I said, I don't know what's true. I expect only two people do. I am just willing to accept that ol Brett might be the liar.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:53 pm

Steve James wrote:
What poof is there that something happened to her other than what she's alleged with no corroborating poof.


What proof would you accept?

Evidence that supports her allegations
Besides, again, the issue is not her. It's only whether he is being honest.


I see, its not about innocent until proving guilty, its guilty until proven innocent. I don't think it would matter to many if it were true --and I've said that several times. It's a farce to even question him about it. Showing his dick or pussy grabbing wouldn't disqualify him from high office.


And, I also think that every man with a daughter would at least consider that her complaints were true. Every father I know dreads the days their daughter goes away to college --just because of beer drinking frat boys like Brett. Like I said, I don't know what's true. I expect only two people do. I am just willing to accept that ol Brett might be the liar.


there is no basis to consider her allegations to be true.
ol Bett, does not have to prove that he is not a liar, you seem to be missing this point.

on the other hand

The full details of Dr. Ford's polygraph are particularly important because the Senate Judiciary Committee has received a sworn statement from a longtime boyfriend of Dr. Ford's, stating that he personally witnessed Dr. Ford coaching a friend on polygraph examinations.

When asked under oath in the hearing whether she'd ever given any tips or advice to someone who was planning on taking a polygraph, Dr. Ford replied, "Never." This statement raises specific concerns about the reliability of her polygraph examination results. The Senate therefore needs this information.
http://confirmkavanaugh.com/wp-content/ ... orneys.pdf

Third, I renew my request for copies of any and all written, audiovisual, or electronic materials relating to the allegations raised by Dr. Ford against Judge Kavanaugh that Dr. Ford or her representative previously provided to any reporter or anyone else at a media organization.

On the eve of our Thursday, September 27 hearing, you provided a single screenshot of Dr. Ford's WhatsApp correspondence with The Washington Post tip line. But Dr. Ford testified the next day that she had continued her conversation, "under the encrypted app," with a reporter. Your failure to provide the entirety of Dr. Ford's correspondence with The Post again suggests a lack of candor.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby Steve James on Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:18 am

Evidence that supports her allegations


What would that be, though?

I see, its not about innocent until proving guilty, its guilty until proven innocent.


No, it's not a trial; as you say, he hasn't even been charged or indicted by the state. He's only been accused. And I have never said he was guilty of anything. I --and FOX news-- and others have said that Ford's testimony was credible. I pointed out that the criticism was that she could be a good liar and even able to defeat an polygraph exam (like a Spetnaz operator).

Kavanaugh was the one who appeared deceptive because of his exaggerated animation, and he's the one up for a lifetime position to one of the most important branches of government. It's only his character that has been questioned and needs to be question. Ford could be a downtown prostitute, and it wouldn't make one bit of difference.

I'll say it again. He can't be any worse than the president when it comes to treatment of women. I bring him up not because I'm against him, but because I'm against his teenie, playboy chauvinism toward women. Compared to Trump, Kavanaugh is probably a choir boy, not an admitted pussy grabber and proud adulterer. Ok, just like DT's lawyer Rudy Giuliani. It's better than having the fake morality, family values, and piety --though it's ultimately the same, just more blatant.

Anyway, when I read the prez's comments, it's clear how mediocre his logical ability is, at least when putting his thoughts into words. However, the reasoning does seem familiar:

"It is a very scary time for young men in America. You can be accused before you prove your innocence,"


Well, obviously, you can't prove your innocence if you haven't been accused.

"Well I say that it's a very scary time for young men in America when you can be guilty of something that you may not be guilty of. This is a very, very... This is a very difficult time,"


Yeah, I know, what he meant was "accused of something," but being falsely accused (which is a sin) is something I've always been scared of. Of course, it might be scarier now for people who had been too powerful to risk accusing are now in the same boat. ;)

During my office hours with students, I make sure the door is wide open. I think it's possible to get the courting done without any coercion at all. Today is no different than yesterday, except that women (and men) who feel they were misused in the past feel free to come forward. So, the focus of the accusations will be on those (usually) men who had power in the past. It's like a big polygraph test. The guilty will be much more stressed than the innocent.

Btw, all this woman stuff we guys are talking about is just bullshit. They gonna do what they gonna do.

Ps. I've never gone out with a student. But I have dated a full professor and dean. :)
Last edited by Steve James on Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby KEND on Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:03 pm

K has been dumped by Harvard, friend who said he was often drunk and aggressive, negatives are piling up. Flake is a politician, anything in the report gives him an out he will dump K, plus 2 women who agendas, looks bad for big K
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Re: Here comes the Judge

Postby cgtomash on Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:12 pm

The way Kavanaugh skirted around Durbin's questions was very telling...

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