The Saudi Embassy affair

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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby grzegorz on Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:12 pm

Watch "Khashoggi's body parts carried into Saudi Arabia's consul residence" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/GD06WLJH3Wk
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby grzegorz on Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:14 am

Trick wrote:IS !? Keep such groups far far away from the civilized world.


IS is based on Saudi Wahhabism.

To be pro-Saudi and anti-IS is an oxymoron.
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby grzegorz on Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:45 pm

Trump throwing Otto under the bus proves that Khashoggi being a citizen or not did not matter Trump.

Otto was a citizen and he didn't stand up to the Norks or Kim for their treatment of him.
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby Michael on Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:08 pm

grzegorz wrote:Trump throwing Otto under the bus proves that Khashoggi being a citizen or not did not matter Trump.

Otto was a citizen and he didn't stand up to the Norks or Kim for their treatment of him.

You and Steve also threw Otto under the bus and refused to even give him the benefit of the doubt, but now you wanna use him because it's related to Trump? Come on, try and be consistent, and Khashoggi was not a US citizen.
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:22 pm

Hmm, I don't recall throwing Otto "under the bus." I'm not sure what that means, either. I'll bet money that I said he didn't deserve to die. I probably did say that he was guilty. Otoh, I have been critical of NK's abuse of human rights.

Now, afa Trump is concerned, I have no idea of what he's saying not or whether he's thrown Otto "under the bus." I will point out that, unlike DT, I have no power or influence, or the ear of the NKorean leader. So, comparing what I say to what DT can actually do is silly. I.e., he could say something that might actually make a difference, and he's the one who has the opportunity.

If I (or origami) are using Otto to criticize Trump (though I freely admit I have no particular sympathy for him), then Trump has certainly been using Otto for his own reasons --one of which was to criticize earlier administrations. Iow, he "cares" for Otto for political reasons. Besides, Mike, are you saying that you care for Otto more than anyone here? Why?
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby Michael on Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:01 pm

I got the impression from the previous discussion of Otto that you don't care for him very much, maybe not at all.
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby Trick on Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:03 pm

Michael wrote:
grzegorz wrote:Trump throwing Otto under the bus proves that Khashoggi being a citizen or not did not matter Trump.

Otto was a citizen and he didn't stand up to the Norks or Kim for their treatment of him.

You and Steve also threw Otto under the bus and refused to even give him the benefit of the doubt, but now you wanna use him because it's related to Trump? Come on, try and be consistent, and Khashoggi was not a US citizen.

haha grezgorz has worked on this for one and a half month now to come up with a new fresh angle
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby grzegorz on Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:56 am

Michael wrote:
grzegorz wrote:Trump throwing Otto under the bus proves that Khashoggi being a citizen or not did not matter Trump.

Otto was a citizen and he didn't stand up to the Norks or Kim for their treatment of him.

You and Steve also threw Otto under the bus and refused to even give him the benefit of the doubt, but now you wanna use him because it's related to Trump? Come on, try and be consistent, and Khashoggi was not a US citizen.


Find where I said that and show me.

I never said that but you may assume I did because Steve once pointed out that Otto was a thief and got arrested which is true. What is not true is that he or I somehow feel that he deserved to have what happened to him. Neither I or Steve said that I think there's some confusion there so I will straighten things out because this isn't the first you have said this.

People excuse Trump because Kashoogi "wasn't a citizen" although he lived and worked here, his American children are here, and was in the process of becoming a US citizen after receiving asylum here and paid taxes here. Trump supporters believe the Saudis can do whatever they want as long as its not a US citizen.

Yet Otto was a US citizen and a rallying cry for the Trump crowd because "Obama should have done more." The parents of Otto were paraded around and were Pence's special guests on an ocassion or two. But when Trump finally had a chance to confront Kim about Otto, so Trump says, Kim said he knew nothing and Trump believed him which he has told us. Just like the Crown Prince but this time it was US citizen and Trump did nothing. The fact is Otto was used by Trump/Pence to outrage the base in the belief that Trump/Pence would be different and they are not. Also the US citizen argument by Trump supporters is a lie as has been proven by the fact that Trump doesn't care about Otto anymore than he did for Kashoogi.


Watch "Kim Jong Un 'felt badly' about Otto Warmbier, Trump says" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/M3kpkVlicOM

Saying that, to clarify so there isn't any further misunderstandings I want to state that I give Trump credit for trying but the outcome was exactly as I expected and if you read my comments from the start of the Korea thread you will see that.
Last edited by grzegorz on Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:21 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby grzegorz on Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:10 am

Trick wrote:haha grezgorz has worked on this for one and a half month now to come up with a new fresh angle




Image
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby Trick on Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:43 am

Dry cup!
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby Michael on Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:21 am

Saying that, to clarify so there isn't any further misunderstandings


Fair enough, Greg. Thanks for clarifying.
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby Steve James on Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:21 pm

Just to point out that it is not a democrat, liberal, leftist, or anti-Trump conspiracy to criticize him. The people who truly care for Otto, his parents, criticize Trump for his comments, and even some Republicans call him naive. So, it's not just origami-itto. In any case, either one believes that Kim knew nothing about it or not. Likewise, does anyone believe that Trump believes Kim?

Otto Warmbier’s family has come out to publicly shame President Donald Trump for siding with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, who claimed he didn’t know their son was being mistreated during his incarceration.

“We have been respectful during this summit process. Now we must speak out. Kim and his evil regime are responsible for the death of our son Otto,” Fred and Cindy Warmbier said in a statement provided to CNN. “Kim and his evil regime are responsible for unimaginable cruelty and inhumanity. No excuses or lavish praise can change that.”

...
... Trump said he believed that Kim had not known that Warmbier was being tortured, which is absolute bullshit considering that citizens of North Korea can’t even move freely around the city without being questioned.

“I personally find that statement extremely hard to believe,” said Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine), The Hill reports.

In a speech on the Senate floor, Sen. Rob Portman (R-Ohio), who represents Warmbier’s home state, warned the president not to be “naive” about the “brutal nature” of the North Korean regime.

“I want to make clear that we can never forget about Otto. His treatment at the hands of his captors was unforgivable and it tells us a lot about the nature of the regime,” said Portman.

“We can’t be naive about what they did to Otto, about the brutal nature of the regime that would do this to an American citizen,” he warned, The Hill reports.

...Susan Collins...“I am surprised that he accepted at face value apparently what happened to the American who was held there,” she said.

Trump publicly admitted that Kim told him he didn’t know that Warmbier was being mistreated, and he just believed him.

“He tells me he didn’t know about it, and I take him at his word,” Trump said Thursday.

For those keeping score at home, this is the third evil dictator who’s told Trump he didn’t do something and Trump just believed him. The first was his bae Russian President Vladimir Putin, who told Trump that Russia had nothing to do with steering the presidential election in Trump’s favor. Trump also sided with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who was implicated in the death of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby Michael on Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:21 pm

If Trump is publicly chummy with Putin, Kim, or another potential antagonist--even an ancillary one like MBS--the appearance of good relations reduces the likelihood of war, because in democratic countries wars have to be sold to the public. Visibly friendly relations between leaders creates a counter-narrative to the external enemy story that is usually part of a propaganda process needed to begin hostilities and created by those who profit from war, such as the false tales of bayoneted babies and WMD's sold to us prior to both Iraq wars, the Gulf of Tonkin, the Marine killed in Panama, etc.

This picture was influential in gaining popular consensus against the 2003 Iraq war. Considering the swiftness of social media to influemce opinions, video of Trump and Kim hugging it out might be an obstacle to war.

Image
Last edited by Michael on Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby Steve James on Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:09 pm

If Trump is publicly chummy with Putin, Kim, or another potential antagonist--even an ancillary one like MBS--the appearance of good relations reduces the likelihood of war, because in democratic countries wars have to be sold to the public.


It seems you're more concerned with defending Trump on any issue than caring for Otto.

However, I'm sure you've heard that Russia is leaving SALT, that Putin is publicly claiming to have weapons that are unstoppable by western defenses, and has publicly identified targets in the US. This was all in 2019. So, I would refute your contention that there is any reduction in the likelihood of war. We are currently supplying the Ukraine with weapons for defense against Russian-backed troops.

Appearing chummy with the Saudis did not prevent 9/11, did it? Remember? Trump saw thousands of Muslims celebrating in the streets of New Jersey. Moreover, what about Iran? Why not be chummy with the Ayatollah?

Seeing Kim with Trump makes war less likely? That assumes that Kim is a dumb as he looks. I will admit that calling Kim "little rocket boy" for a year makes it all the more likely that Trump's appeasement (by now calling him "smart") is a false as most of his statements. As you pointed out, it's all for show. If Trump is smart, the US will not let down it's guard for the sake of his ego or political success. Meanwhile, there is evidence that Kim has produced more nuclear sites.

A war, if any, would be between NKorea and another Asian country. I do agree that it's great for relations on the Korean peninsula if Kim and other Asian leaders appear to be on friendly terms. But, it's not about Trump. China will determine much more. Nuclear war is not in its 25 year plan.

Anyway, OTTO's parents criticized Trump. Don't blame the messenger. Disagree with them.
Last edited by Steve James on Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Saudi Embassy affair

Postby Michael on Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:42 pm

It seems you're more concerned with defending Trump on any issue than caring for Otto.


Not really, I am merely hopeful that Trump's diplomacy will make war less likely.
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