Inside China's war on Islam

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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vagabond on Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:23 am

[Americans]


Phantoms, illusions, empty flowers -
why trouble yourself trying to grasp them?
Gain, loss, right, wrong -
throw them away at once!
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Giles on Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:33 am

vagabond wrote:Phantoms, illusions, empty flowers -
why trouble yourself trying to grasp them?
Gain, loss, right, wrong -
throw them away at once!


I don't see how quasi-oracular statements like that are useful to anybody in this discussion. What are you aiming to say? Don't think, don't try to understand? Maybe that's not what you mean, but what otherwise?
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vagabond on Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:42 am

show me an american. i've heard a lot about them, i've never seen one
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Bao on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:01 am

vagabond wrote:show me an american. i've heard a lot about them, i've never seen one



Image
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vagabond on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:28 am

of course you know that pocahontas was a prisoner of war who died in captivity, most likely of a disease contracted from her captors very much like the ones that killed the greater part of the first peoples to live on the continent i'm also currently on

a character in a movie we all may have seen, who was given the name pocahontas with, to my knowledge, no consideration for legitimacy, historical accuracy or legacy, famously aksed "can you sing with all the voices of a mountain; can you paint with all the colors of the wind." i find this quite apt, precisely because you can't, while you could very reasonably make an attempt to do the inverse. the first inhabitants of our ill gotten home had and have a harmoniously well adapted way of life, arguably less so since some other folks showed up, and the lyrics of that disney song are not coincidentally aesthically similar while philosophically diametrically opposed to first nation world views. the insistence on mysteriously-goofily cultivating physically impossible abilities by apeing what one uncritically considers to be a faithful depiction of some noble savage or other is something that, well, really chaps my ass
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vagabond on Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:28 am

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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Steve James on Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:31 am

Here's another.
Image
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media ... rience.jpg

Yeah, she got screwed over, by the people who kidnapped her, and especially by her hubby. But, her condition has nothing to do with her identity. Ok, Native Americans call themselves by their "tribal" nation or clan names. So, she probably identified as Shoshone.

There's an interesting discussion about self and group identification to be had, but in terms of the op, I still emphasize that Chinese are oppressing Chinese. That's not to argue that China is worse that anywhere else. Germans in the 30s made war against other Germans, using the excuse that they were threats to the nation and the destiny of its people. Hey, the PRC may try to take Taiwan ---based on the one China, one people. Just like Putin, picked up the Crimea and is looking at the Ukraine --to protect the people. In all cases, the major victims will be those people.

Americans, whoever they think they are, need to stop killing Americans first.

The question "What is an American" is valid. It depends on who you ask. I can't say for sure what it is, but I'm sure it's not a French, German, Chinese, Japanese, Chinese, or Senegalese. Since it describes a continent, though, we could say that everyone born on the continent is American the way everyone born in Europe is European. Oops, it's not about where one is born but where one's ancestors were born hundreds and thousands of years ago. Well, except that someone from Slovenia can become and be considered American in 5 years or less. In theory --not to mention, by law-- anyone has the opportunity to become American. In practice, some people will not be considered American no matter how long their ancestors have been here.

In Germany, it used to be that one was German because one had German "blood." One's Germanness was determined by the proportion of that blood. Yeah, that was the Nazi era, but that's not my point. The whole German identity movement and master race theory was based on the idea of "pure blood." One can see how that theory won't work in the US, but will nevertheless be promoted. I.e., the idea of the "real American" being so and so and not such and such. Yet, that "real American" in the US will almost inevitably have "mixed blood" or will have mixed blood, just like sperm, language, and culture. It is inevitable, but it simply produces new people in the same way it always has.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vagabond on Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:44 pm

no.

her condition is her identity, a constellation of dependant phenomena, subject to material change moment by moment. in this case, what you're thinking of is your condition, although these days the term "disorder" is preferred

There's an interesting discussion about self and group identification to be had, but
i'll just mention it and quickly change the subject to give the lingering impression that it's been discussed when in fact this is my best attempt at a clever dodge.

that theory came from the us. carl schmitt was heavily influenced by us legal structure. the contradiction built around notional purity was intentional in both cases, and has roots going uhhhhhh pretty far back

if you're feeling ambitious, and ready to give up notional control of the status of tikka masala:

https://www.thing.net/~rdom/ucsd/biopolitics/HomoSacer.pdf
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Steve James on Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:16 pm

[quote]her condition is her identity,/quote]

Double no. You could mean that her status is her identity, but that is only relation to others. Secondly, our identification of her may be irrelevant to her. I.e., just because someone defines me by my condition, I don't particularly pay attention.

Now, when it comes to "identity," per se, there are different types. None of which determine who I think I am. Afa that goes, it doesn't arise from someone's conception in a book. It is something that is lived. It's not necessarily determined by where one lives, which brings us to your question: what is an American? You can say that there's no such thing, though that doesn't change that many people identify as such. We're all Earthlings too, due to our conditions.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vagabond on Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:04 pm

identity is from the latin for same (i googled it real quick). so already, on the face of it, we have a tautology that is demonstrably untrue. "it doesn't come from someone's conception in a book" is a chintzy copout. everything is something that is lived; without further qualifications that's a meaningless statement. it has however been perfectly clear that you don't particularly pay attention.

what is an american is your question. it is your question because you would much rather pretend it's meaningful without working through it than risk the loss of the spotlight, both geopolitically and in the course of this conversation. you seem hellbent maintaining a status of privilege while avoiding any kind of responsibility with typical boomer fecklessness, which is to say disavowing any ability to respond. so i suppose there's only one question left: have you considered term life insurance? if you act now, i can get you 100,000 dollars of coverage!

status, by the way, is from the latin to stand, i.e. where you're at
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Steve James on Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:50 pm

:) This discussion isn't about me. But, good that you googled identity after you made your claims. You don't raise the relevance of anything you've said by disparaging me. Have at it, though.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vagabond on Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:43 am

sorry dude, you went and made it about you. i don't think i'm the only one who doesn't accept that you introducing, i'll harp on it again, tikka masala is a move intended to demonstrate some simultaneously nebulous and incontrovertible truth about multiculturalism. identifying (or "same"ing, if you will) a peoples with the goods and resources that are being stolen from them is an old trick. the british empire used to be fond of using rugs and carpets, because they could be shown to be under the british heel without allowing room for any reasonable objection ("what, it's a carpet, you don't step on carpets? lighten up!)

as to raising the relevance of my arguments by disparaging you, i'll lay it out real quick. i, pleasure to meet you sir, am a millennial. i was born into certain circumstances, to include parents having to make 50 bucks or so feed a family of four for a week or sometimes two, schools that resemble factories that resemble barracks that resemble prisons (that's actually not all that new but still pertains), the expectation that i attend college at not all but a very specific cost simultaneous to the increasing worthlessness of a college degree, the death of growth in all industries but the service industry (which incidentally transposes the service industry character onto all workplaces, making customer service out of jobs that used to be simple labor), increasing certainty of environmental catastrophe and possible mammalian extinction alongside the insistence of the culture industry that this is my fault (recycle! shorter showers!), and some other stuff too. i never had the luxury of paying for two years college with the money from my paper route and starting a company selling superfluous bullshit to my peers who had money to burn because the us came out wwii with unprecedented access to the resources of the third world or the global south or whatever.

so pinning you down and destroying your arguments serves a strong purpose. i googled identity before i made my claims by the way, for example, which you and everyone with a brain well knows; how could could i have made claims about the etymology of a word without having looked into it? this stark reversal of logic presents a strong parallel to my pocahontas example; by using confusing turns of phrase to present something that is literally impossible as absolutely the case you seek to control conversational narrative in order to influence the decision making process of everyone tuned in to the discourse, rhetorically encapsulating threatening concepts into a form that can only ever be a totem, much like disney's pocahontas. in much the same way you tried to corral the conversation into "what is an american" by attempting to put those words in my mouth. but in asserting that i was asking a question i had not, in full knowledge that i had not, you were lying. in similar ways you've been lying this entire time, and you and the rest of the "free love" and "me" generation have been spinning lies just to maintain an unsustainably extractive economy and some shitty ranch houses

and finally, you're right. this is not about you. do you really think i would waste all this time talking to you? this is a platform

to return to the subject of the xi regimes persecution of uighur peoples, if this bothers anybody, there is a long history of activist resistance to fucked up nonsense in all parts of the world. in the uk for instance, why not try to have this conversation with some folks who got their stripes resisting highway expansion projects? or in germany, the antinuclear movement? rather than looking for simple catharsis and virtue signaling on some backwater forum
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Steve James on Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:54 am

sorry dude, you went and made it about you. i don't think i'm the only one who doesn't accept that you introducing, i'll harp on it again, tikka masala is a move intended to demonstrate some simultaneously nebulous and incontrovertible truth about multiculturalism.....

...i, pleasure to meet you sir, am a millennial. i was born into certain circumstances, to include parents having to make 50 bucks or so feed a family of four for a week or sometimes two, schools that resemble factories that resemble barracks that resemble prisons

..."what is an american" by attempting to put those words in my mouth. but in asserting that i was asking a question i had not, in full knowledge that i had not, you were lying. in similar ways you've been lying this entire time, and you and the rest of the "free love" and "me" generation have been spinning lies just to maintain an unsustainably extractive economy and some shitty ranch houses

and finally, you're right. this is not about you. do you really think i would waste all this time talking to you? this is a platform


Yep, quite a nice platform it is, too.

to return to the subject of the xi regimes persecution of uighur peoples, if this bothers anybody, there is a long history of activist resistance to fucked up nonsense in all parts of the world. in the uk for instance, why not try to have this conversation with some folks who got their stripes resisting highway expansion projects? or in germany, the antinuclear movement? rather than looking for simple catharsis and virtue signaling on some backwater forum


That was lovely. Something must have struck a nerve.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby vagabond on Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:57 am

yea bro. you pissed me off. i'm not ashamed of having feelings, and i see no virtue in not having them. have you got a credible argument to make or even a further stake in this conversation, or are you just, still, hellbent on shitting in the groundwater?
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Steve James on Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:14 am

vagabond wrote:yea bro. you pissed me off. i'm not ashamed of having feelings, and i see no virtue in not having them. have you got a credible argument to make or even a further stake in this conversation, or are you just, still, hellbent on shitting in the groundwater?


Too bad you're pissed off. It's good to vent, though. Didn't know I was talking about you. It's a forum.
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