Inside China's war on Islam

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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Trick on Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:42 am

Peacedog wrote:over time then you are talking Tibetan.

Already before the PRC there lived far more Tibetans in Sichuan province than in Tibet. Life in Tibet at that time was unbearable for the lower class, Tibet had a very strict and oppressive class system back then.
The German Nazis found a liking of the cruel Tibetan society. The stories how the Nazis made candles and lamp screens(is that the word?) from human bodies, they imported that from Tibetan culture.
Now all that is gone and Tibetans that otherwise would be of the lower class can do prosperous business.....I’m sure the Dalai-Lama don’t mind that as long as he get his paychecks from CIA, they in turn probably hope the old fart drops dead any day soon, he didn’t work out as they hoped.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Bao on Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:18 am

Trick wrote:I’m sure the Dalai-Lama don’t mind that as long as he get his paychecks from CIA, they in turn probably hope the old fart drops dead any day soon, he didn’t work out as they hoped.


He is still important for them as a symbol of oppression. But I suspect the US focus more on paying Vuighurs and people in Hong Kong to stir up problems in a desperate act trying to demonize Mainland China.

Peacedog wrote:As I've said before, the PRC is going for the end game on the Uyghurs.


Have no idea why you believe so. What the Chinese government is doing right now is fighting poverty throughout all of China, even in Xinjiang creating jobs for everyone. They have gathered together many big and smaller companies to find ways that people in more isolated areas can support themselves. There's a Vuighur family in Xinjiang for instance, they didn't have much, but they have delicious apples. From being very poor they now make one million Yuan (appprox $100000) a year.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Trick on Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:49 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:I’m sure the Dalai-Lama don’t mind that as long as he get his paychecks from CIA, they in turn probably hope the old fart drops dead any day soon, he didn’t work out as they hoped.


He is still important for them as a symbol of oppression. But I suspect the US focus more on paying Vuighurs and people in Hong Kong to stir up problems in a desperate act trying to demonize Mainland China.

Yes there is an very “outspoken” Uighur woman in the US that seemingly get a lot of support from her new home country, she’s boosting the morale in her brothers still living in China to do terror attacks, all the while she sit in her safe USA. Even the Swedish government and media has “used” her.
And yes HK, what’s that young upstanding student name, the guy who even where caught on camera meeting with CIA people during the Umbrella movement..there’s nothing better than the image of the “fragile”woman or the young student that stand up against the old ugly Goliath, a show all orchestrated by old ugly Goliaths elsewhere.

Someone spoke about how Chinese government seek around the world to pick home bad Chinese, while another here say the plan is to make the “bad” leave China ??
Well whatever it is, Its seemingly a thing the US practice, hell they even seek out “threatening” non US citizens in all corners of the globe....
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Peacedog on Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:23 am

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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:39 pm

Peacedog wrote:Check and mate...


How? :-\
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Michael on Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:42 pm


If Erdogan says they're living happily, then I guess what happens in China stays in China.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Peacedog on Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:55 pm

Pretty much my thought too.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby yeniseri on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:52 pm

It is not so much a war on Islam but on anything that is not Communist speaking against the state apparatus. Look at Falungong ;D
Was in Turkey and met many Uighur (identified by the Central Asian phenotype vs the average Turk) and they really have no choice as to who will support them. RIght now Turkey sees them as long lost brothers per language along with other Muslims seeing them as destroyers of Islam way back when. No doubt some groups are trying to live up to the concept of ummah (community) but China's soft power goes a long way to change people's mind and point of view on support.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:30 am

yeniseri wrote:It is not so much a war on Islam but on anything that is not Communist speaking against the state apparatus. Look at Falungong ;D


If you are outspoken anti-communist or Anti-patriotic you might encounter some problems. Especially if you try to oppose your views on others. Then it doesn't matter if you are Christian, Moslem, Buddhist or non-believer, or if you belong to Han or any of the 55 minorities.

I know a Falungong-er. She presented me their book right before the Falungong's demonstration on Tiananmen square which had it banned. I remember reading out loud from it for friends. Damn we had a good laugh. It was the most ridiculously unbelievably stupid I've ever read. Anyway, I remember that she was later caught at a meeting. The police took them in. The Chinese were released and the foreigners had to leave the country. That was it. No torture. I know a Chines who one time was the biggest leader (CEO or what you call it) in a factory. He said that sometimes they had Falungong followers. He took them in and spoke with them, had a chat to see if they wee all right and make sure that it had no impact on their work. And that's all. Sometimes when the police find meetings or gatherings, it's more or less the same. They want to make sure that the people are doing ok and offer them help if they want. Maybe they'll get a small fine.

One of the problem in Xinjiang is that many are uneducated, not only Uighurs. But the Uighurs have schools where studying their own language and culture as well as the Koran is mandatory. But still some families refuse to put their children in schools, mostly because the families are poor and they need help on their farms. Other Uighurs are very wealthy. There are farmers and business people doing very well. When they put their children in high schools in Shanghai or Beijing, the children come in luxury cars with their own drivers. They are still Moslem, they study their own Uighur language and culture. And they are doing well.

Not meaning that everything is fine. Of course there are problems. I have no idea how much about those re-educating centers are true or false. But the idea that the Chinese government are trying to oppress Uighurs or Moslems just because they are Uighur or Moslem is something I find ludicrous and very far from the China I have personally met. I also find the idea that if you are a Falongong member you will be tortured ludicrous. But if you can, it's good to find and take part of many different versions of what is happening in China. There are many different sides telling different versions of the truth. Maybe somewhere in the middle of everything, you can find traces of what is really going on... Maybe... :-\
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Michael on Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:13 am

Trick wrote:
Michael wrote:beyond parody

The technology available for surveillance and control is extreme. Just one example: if you want to buy a kitchen knife, it will be laser etched with your ID# and you cannot sell it, give it, or lose it.

Is that at the IKEA ?

Not IKEA, no, lol. At the authorized knife shops in Xinjiang.

https://www.fastcompany.com/40510238/in ... s-qr-codes

https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur ... 43950.html
Last edited by Michael on Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Michael on Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:18 am

Bao, is it really just because you have not personally ever seen any evidence with your own two eyes of oppression in China against religious people that you find it so enjoyable to mock the religious beliefs of the Falungong in a thread about religious persecution, or is it because of your own personal viewpoint about the validity of religion in general?

Excuse me if I have incorrectly presented an either-or question, but that is the best way I can phrase it because I think one can only draw the conclusion from what you have stated, that "...the idea that the Chinese government are trying to oppress Uighurs or Moslems just because they are Uighur or Moslem is something I find ludicrous and very far from the China I have personally met," and therefore there is no religious persecution in China at all since you have dismissed the claims of religious persecution by the three most significant groups who claim it.

Is that your opinion? There is no religious persecution in China at all? Or maybe the persecution involves religious people, but it's the consequences of their behavior and not their beliefs exactly?

Just so you know, I also acknowledge the Chinese government is decreasing poverty and increasing jobs overall. For example, I saw them hire many Buddhist monks in Guangzhou.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:12 am

"is it really just because you have not personally ever seen any evidence with your own two eyes of oppression in China against religious people that you find it so enjoyable to mock the religious beliefs of the Falungong in a thread about religious persecution, or is it because of your own personal viewpoint about the validity of religion in general?


I was referring to an episode before I knew anything about Falungong. Only that they did some sort of Qigong. A friend lend my a book. It was very funny to read very serious claims about that the Third Eye was in fact a real physical eye inside the head and that scientists had found a nuclear power plant that was one million year old, something from a higher civilisation. Now their books are free to read online to anyone. This episode I mentioned has nothing to do with my general views on religion. Personal religion and personal belief is something I respect deeply.

"Is that your opinion? There is no religious persecution in China at all? Or maybe the persecution involves religious people, but it's the consequences of their behavior and not their beliefs exactly?"


As I said, I have no idea exactly where they stand. Persecution of traditional religions? No. Persecution of groups that has become labelled as superstitious sects? Yes, I am sure it can occur to smaller or greater extent.

I am certain that the Government don't like certain groups and gatherings from many different religions. But if people keep what they do to themselves, as I described in my previous post, they are left alone. If you are considered to be a danger to other people, then you are in trouble. In the Chinese view, sects that pull people in an exclude them from society is not very desirable as it often rips apart families and inflict pain and suffering to other people in their previous surroundings.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Michael on Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:14 am

But if people keep what they do to themselves, as I described in my previous post, they are left alone.

Let me just use one example to disagree with you that I think you may be familiar with: house Christians. These are very small groups of people who meet in the 10's and 20's of people with no advertising. Are they not keeping to themselves?
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Michael on Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:23 am

Bao wrote:A friend lend my a book. It was very funny to read very serious claims about that the Third Eye was in fact a real physical eye inside the head and that scientists had found a nuclear power plant that was one million year old, something from a higher civilisation.

Okay, that is ridiculous and funny if you think someone took it seriously, although because of the very low level of general knowledge in China the third eye thing is a lie that would not appear impossible to the average person in the mainland the way it would to us.

Was this before the crackdown? Before 2000? The CCP has put out a lot of anti-Falungong and anti-qigong propaganda since the crackdown. I can not even mention qigong to Chinese people born after around 1995 without getting an extremely negative reaction. I don't know much about FLG teachings, but I've never heard this stuff about nuclear power plants. Maybe the book was disinformation from the CCP.
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Re: Inside China's war on Islam

Postby Michael on Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:25 am

Generally, on the topic of persecution in mainland China, from what I have seen, what the Chinese government does not like is for people to believe in anything, not even ideas like communism with Chinese characteristics, or whatever is scratched upon their so-called constitution. The only exception is the belief in money, which is permitted and promoted within the context of a social system where it is very difficult to earn without being an exploiter, cheater, liar, or faker to a degree that is not possible in other "capitalist" countries. I use the quotes because of the mixture of communism and capitalism in PRC by people who criticize the problems of capitalist countries, which are valid criticisms, but they are coming from a source that is, as we say in America, neither fish nor fowl.
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