The electoral college issue we forgot

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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby grzegorz on Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:28 pm

I look at things as they really happened. For me, to look only to the electorial college and not the hacking and influence of foreign powers (which will happen again) with Cambridge Analytica and the fact that Trump got elected playing on hate, division and fears in society and by blaming others who don't determine economic policy such as foreign born Americans would be an oversimplification of what happened.

I do agree that the electorial college system is not democracy but should have ended with slavery but I see no reason why we should rule anything out when we look back at history. Perhaps if Clinton would have visited the rust belt once things would have turned out differently. In fact her husband wanted her to but he got overruled by her campaign.

Nevermind that we haven't discussed the numbers of votes that were not counted and the lack of voting machines in places like Detroit.

For me, the real irony is that the US is now trying to flip the results of Maduro's election by choosing a puppet and saying Maduro's wasn't legitimately elected. Oh the irony! I wonder how Americans would feel if foreign powers removed Trump by force.

Yes, we need to take the necessary steps to throw out the electorial college. If we had a national holiday for voting that would happen. The problem is the GOP has no desire to have national holiday for voting and GOP has no desire to have people vote. So the we should aim high but first we would have to get people to vote in Democratic candidates to office even if they don't agree with that candidate on every issue.

The irony is that the GOP doesn't even have an agenda from what I can tell except tax cuts for the riches which do nothing for the "forgotten man" (just look at Kansas) and deregulation which also does nothing for the "forgetten man." Seems to me the only goal of the GOP is stop history.

Yes, end the electorial college but until that happens I would rather have people follow and be aware of all things that affect elections than only look at one thing and have them give up.
Last edited by grzegorz on Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:41 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby grzegorz on Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:47 pm

Steve James wrote:
Michael wrote:Yeah, I guess both sides are concerned the other is gaming the system.


I don't see it as sides. Once that happens, people feel they have to be loyal, like they're on a team and the other "side" is the enemy. The national election should be about how the people vote nationally, not about the way some people have decided their state's votes should be counted. YEAH, I know "the people of the state choose." That's why there are states asking for a change. Why is there resistance? Because it means a loss of power for some people.

Women weren't able to vote 100 years ago. It wasn't about the different parties. It's not that women had been holding anyone back. Yet, there's a fear of women in power and powerful women. That they're asking for too much. Of course, any "more" is too much.

Btw, most of the time, the winner got the popular vote, and the other side survived ok. In fact, when decisions didn't simply go along party lines, "America" was better off no matter the party of who was in office.


I agree. I think the change would be good and for conservatives living in California their vote would actually matter in the presidential election. If you vote Republican in California or Democratic in Utah for president, then what is the point in the system we have now?
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:57 pm

If we had a national holiday for voting that would happen. The problem is the GOP has no desire to have national holiday for voting


That would cost money. Look at what happens on other holidays. (Ok, I'm suggesting that if Election Day were commercialized, there might still be opposition --definitely maybe).

Of course, the reason there are those who want to limit voting is that they believe that new votes will vote for the other "side." So, they argue that the other side cheats at elections and manipulates vote. Meanwhile, the convictions for voter and election tampering do not reflect their assertions.

Hey, just think. Why is the popular vote only bad and threatening when the winner doesn't get it? Yeah, I get the "new gods won't vote for the old gods" idea. But, the reason will be how the old gods treat the new ones.
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby grzegorz on Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:04 pm

Then when you take into account that there was no right wing outrage when one state flipped a Senate seat by declaring that not having a physical street address on your ID means you can't vote it just goes to show that all these conversations from the right are disengouus.
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby Michael on Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:24 pm

Meanwhile, the convictions for voter and election tampering do not reflect their assertions.


There are some convictions, I think 17 in Texas last year, which is a small number by itself, obviously that few votes could not change an election. However, the evidence for the frequency and normalcy of ineligible voting is there in large numbers in Texas. Here's a 2 minute vid from last November's mid-terms about election judges saying that non-citizens who are DACA / dreamers can vote.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veE5-O6wACw

In January of this year, Texas Attorney General said they found 95,000 non-citizens on voter rolls going back to 1996 and 58,000 of them had voted during that time. One detail to consider is that someone in that list could have registered when they were a non-citizen and later become a citizen before voting, but the Atty General says any false positive is very unlikely because they used several identifiers and know who's a citizen. I read the Snopes article first, then a couple of more right-leaning sources. They all seem to be in agreement on basic facts and only have differences in conclusion about how many might have actually voted.

Texas Attorney General Announces Voter Fraud Alert: 58,000 Non-Citizens Illegally Voted in Texas Elections
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:08 pm

If there were 95,000 non-citizens voting in Texas, then who did they vote for and what effect must it have had on Texas politics?

So, first off, if there is any voter fraud by individual voters, both parties are liable. Anyway, could you post the link to the Snopes article.

Never mind https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/texas ... en-voters/

“There is no credible data that indicates illegal voting is happening in any significant numbers, and the Secretary’s statement does not change that fact,” said Beth Stevens, Voting Rights Legal Director with the Texas Civil Rights Project.

Stevens said she is concerned about how the state identified the suspected non-citizen voters.

“The secretary’s actions threaten to result in tens of thousands of eligible voters being removed from the rolls, including those with the least resources to comply with the demand to show papers,” Stevens said.

Stevens said the latest efforts — and the overzealous celebration from Paxton and others — are concerning because the next step will be that “the state is going to use this highly suspect ‘investigation’ to try to pass laws that will make it harder for eligible Texas voters to cast a ballot that counts.”
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby Michael on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:15 pm

Their actual votes weren't reported, or how they affected the elections, but considering they shouldn't be voting at all, it's enough to know they're voting. You might find out those illegal votes were spread nearly 50/50 and had no effect, but it still shouldn't be happening.

“There is no credible data that indicates illegal voting is happening in any significant numbers, and the Secretary’s statement does not change that fact,” said Beth Stevens, Voting Rights Legal Director with the Texas Civil Rights Project.


Objection, your honor, argumentative. It doesn't say what her basis is for contradicting him. Those numbers look significant to me.

“The secretary’s actions threaten to result in tens of thousands of eligible voters being removed from the rolls, including those with the least resources to comply with the demand to show papers,” Stevens said.


I honestly don't understand what's difficult about showing ID to vote. I know there are people who only deal in cash, which is fine, but no ID? I spoke to a long-time Democrat election judge in Texas (virulently anti-Trump, by the way) who also doesn't see the problem.

I caught the intro. of an interview Candace Owens gave to NYC Black Lives Matter Chairman Hawk Newsome in the past couple of days, and they just started into the topic of voter ID and the video ended. Would love to hear what Newsome was going to say, 'cause I don't get it. I expect the full interview will be available soon.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD00kfhcjiA
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby Steve James on Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:50 pm

Mike, you said you saw it on Snopes. So, I looked.

Besides, you will note that the attempt is to remove people from the rolls, not to enfranchise or enable more people to vote or promote registration.

Thirdly, the assumption is that Democrats benefit from whatever illegal voting there is. Texas is already a Republican dominated state. As I said, the fear is that more voters will end in a loss of control by those in power. So, they say the other side is cheating.

Like I said, if all those thousands of voters voted in Texas, they should have had some effect. Though, I bet the effect they claim is that Beto got more votes than he should have.

Still has nothing to do with the national election unless the argument is that voter fraud affects all elections. In that case, let's have a national voter registration. It also offers no reason why national election day shouldn't be a national holiday. In some countries, voting is mandatory. We don't even get 50% participation.
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby Michael on Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:12 pm

Like I said, if all those thousands of voters voted in Texas, they should have had some effect. Though, I bet the effect they claim is that Beto got more votes than he should have.

That's usually how it goes. Gore complained in 2000 about Bush winning. There were serious irregularities in Ohio during the 2004 presidential election in a crucial swing state that led to one criminal accusation of the Repubs miscounting against the Dems, but I don't think there was an indictment. One side complains about the other is how it works, no news there.

Like I said, if all those thousands of voters voted in Texas, they should have had some effect. Though, I bet the effect they claim is that Beto got more votes than he should have.

Still has nothing to do with the national election unless the argument is that voter fraud affects all elections.

Are these two sentences congruent? It doesn't appear to be the case. Maybe I'm missing your point. Why is it not enough that it's illegal and should be corrected?

Thirdly, the assumption is that Democrats benefit from whatever illegal voting there is. Texas is already a Republican dominated state. As I said, the fear is that more voters will end in a loss of control by those in power. So, they say the other side is cheating.

That's what the Republicans say, that first gen Latin voters are 70% Democrat, but the claims are even more than that. The theory from Republicans is that Democrats want to legitimize illegal voting for their benefit, which includes allowing illegal immigration, sanctuary cities and states, and providing ID that can be used at the polls, such as in Chicago and San Francisco.
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby Steve James on Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:38 am

Sure, I'm against illegal voting, but the issue of illegal voting has nothing to do with using the popular vote to elect the president. I also think that the people who argue most forcefully for removing people from the voting rolls have been elected and are already in power and control of the voting system. If you can show me where that is not the case, including Texas, it's just the fact.

If you believe there are lots of illegal voters, it's simply because you choose to believe the claim. Fine, but it's not an argument for or against a voting system. Using the popular vote would not change.

I made several suggestions regarding voting. Do you see anything wrong with making election day a national holiday? Do you think it's a good idea to register everyone who is legally permitted to vote?

Finally, it's been clear for decades that the object has always been to limit voting. My grandmother and grandfather weren't allowed to register to vote. People were beaten for attempting to register.
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby meeks on Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:42 am

One of the issues they've created about "voter id problems" is to state that your id must have your current address on it. That means if you're living on college campus and your driver's license has your parents home address you're ineligible to vote. Then they close driver's license offices in primarily Democratic voting regions so you have to drive a few hours to apply for a license making it challenging for those voters to be able to register to vote.
You can't just show up with proper id (e.g. Your passport) because that would make it easier to vote. Keep in mind the majority of illegals are going to keep their heads down under the radar and won't be registering to vote. The issue is not about illegals, nor people not having id trying to vote multiple times. It's about gaming the system so you can control who votes in your own favor.
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby Michael on Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:04 pm

Steve wrote:If you believe there are lots of illegal voters, it's simply because you choose to believe the claim.


At this point, I'm agnostic about the claim of illegal voters, both in regards to the numbers and the alleged motive of allowing it, which is to increase numbers of Democratic voters.

Fine, but it's not an argument for or against a voting system. Using the popular vote would not change.


Right. I'm not making an argument for or against a voting system, I'm talking about the influence of non-citizen voters.

Do you see anything wrong with making election day a national holiday?


It's an interesting idea that I think would go well with a broader package, such as voter registration and mandatory voting.

I also think that the people who argue most forcefully for removing people from the voting rolls have been elected and are already in power and control of the voting system.


I hear it from all sides: Republicans, Democrats, and people who are non-partisan, independent critics, but want better integrity of the system.
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby Michael on Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:14 pm

meeks wrote:That means if you're living on college campus and your driver's license has your parents home address you're ineligible to vote.

Do you know if this has happened? The address on the ID should not be relevant, it's just an ID, so the address on the voter registration is operative. Excluding people because of address on the ID would also cause problems for active duty military, who are not required to update their state ID's at all, so an election judge would have to get into the rules about this in order to cross-reference the address on their ID for voting eligibility. I don't think it's practical. The US passport should also be a valid ID and obviously has no address.

It's about gaming the system so you can control who votes in your own favor.

That seems to happen no matter who is in power at a particular time, from gerrymandering to ballot counting. My impression of the voting system in general is that it's a mess, although it varies significantly across jurisdictions.

Just this past week, a measure failed in the House to prevent illegal immigrants from voting in local elections. A few US cities allow illegal aliens to vote in school board and other elections, but this 12 min. video from Tim Pool goes into some of the US history about non-citizens voting, which was news to me and quite interesting.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywVBKUWWhjI
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby grzegorz on Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:16 pm

Hearing it from all sides is meaningless.

It's not as if a few voices speak for all on the left or right.

Saying that these restrictions on voting and overturning the voting rights act all started on the right. Again not saying all conservatives agree but it wasn't the Democratic party that is pushing for voter suppression.

Again I find this idea of voter fraud a strawman argument and believe any further debate is a meaningless distraction since the problem is not enough Americans are voting (and is not) ineligible people living in the US are voting.
Last edited by grzegorz on Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The electoral college issue we forgot

Postby Steve James on Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:06 pm

Addresses, yeah, well, if you live on a rez, you might not have a "street" address because there may be no named streets. For example, check Snopes:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north ... an-voters/

And, what about our homeless population?

Don't let's get started on "historical voter disenfranchisement in the US." http://werehistory.org/disenfranchisement/
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