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Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:56 am
by Steve James
JAKARTA/SINGAPORE/PARIS (Reuters) - The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.

The investigation into the crash, which killed all 189 people on board in October, has taken on new relevance as the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and other regulators grounded the model last week after a second deadly accident in Ethiopia.
Investigators examining the Indonesian crash are considering how a computer ordered the plane to dive in response to data from a faulty sensor and whether the pilots had enough training to respond appropriately to the emergency, among other factors.

JAKARTA/SINGAPORE/PARIS (Reuters) - The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.

The investigation into the crash, which killed all 189 people on board in October, has taken on new relevance as the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and other regulators grounded the model last week after a second deadly accident in Ethiopia.
Investigators examining the Indonesian crash are considering how a computer ordered the plane to dive in response to data from a faulty sensor and whether the pilots had enough training to respond appropriately to the emergency, among other factors.


That's scary as hell. Iinm, MCAS is designed to be automatic, and some pilots say that Boeing never even told them it was implemented. They did it because the flight characteristics of the 737 Max is different from the previous 737. So, they used the system to make the planes behave similarly.

I'd bet there are not instructions in any flight manual to address the problem the pilots were having. The plane was doomed. Apparently, there was a mechanical failure with a sensor. The automated system responded the way it should, but to the wrong input, and pointed the nose down. The pilots responded normally by trying to regain level flight, but trying to pull the nose up just increased the nose down response. The airspeed increased, and the pilots were spending time looking through manuals for instructions that wouldn't be there.

At least, such a possible scenario offers solutions. Mechanical fixes are relatively easy. Adjustments to sensors can be made. Pilots can be given the proper instructions to over-ride some automated functions. I know that Boeing didn't withhold anything because they thought or knew the plane was unsafe. It's starting to seem more and more likely that they'll be sued and will be required to pay for re-training.

Note what he says about the manual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftZ6j8onS78

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:37 pm
by Steve James
The FBI is joining the Department of Transportation's investigation into the Boeing 737 Max plane, The Seattle Times reported on Wednesday.

People familiar with the matter told reporter Steve Miletich that the investigation is focused on how the plane, which has crashed twice in the past five months, was certified to fly. Department of Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao formally requested an audit of the Federal Aviation Administration's certification for the process in a letter sent to the agency on Tuesday.

The FBI did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Separately, the Pentagon's inspector general said on Wednesday that it will investigate a watchdog group's allegations that acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan has used his office to promote his former employer, Boeing.


https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... ort-2019-3

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:37 am
by windwalker
As Ethiopian investigators pored over black box data from their crash, sources with knowledge of the doomed Lion Air cockpit voice recorder revealed how pilots searched a manual to figure out why they were hurtling down to sea.


Boeing has said there was a documented procedure to handle the problem.

A different crew on the same plane the previous evening had the same situation but solved it after running through three checklists, though they did not pass on that information to the doomed Indonesian crew, a preliminary report in November said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKCN1R11AK

Seems like their was or is an inherent problem with the plane one being addressed now through a software update.
One of the main selling points was supposedly the pilots could transition to flying the plane with out much retraining if any,
apparently tragically not really true..

It will be interesting to see what the certification process reveals.

related, having known some engineers who worked for Boeing
making parts for the space station...whats shown in the clip seems to be
part of a Boeing culture. not good


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWxxtzBTxGU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbXlU50P9sE

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:32 am
by Steve James
Boeing has said there was a documented procedure to handle the problem.

A different crew on the same plane the previous evening had the same situation but solved it after running through three checklists, though they did not pass on that information to the doomed Indonesian crew, a preliminary report in November said.


That plane wasn't saved by the checklist, manual, or kneeboard. It was the third officer who reacted by turning off automation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YloDJZ7acok

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:31 am
by klonk
Update: Yeah, looks like the problem's in the software.

https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... 737-crash/

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:57 pm
by klonk
The preliminary report is out. In this vid, the report is explained by an airline pilot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBqDcUqJ5_Q




Here is the report

http://www.ecaa.gov.et/documents/20435/ ... %2C(ET-AVJ).pdf

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:34 pm
by Steve James
Go to 16.00. The explanation begins.

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:36 pm
by grzegorz
SCREW BOEING!!!

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:44 am
by Bao
So Boeing killed a few hundred people. Let’s see the responsible people sentenced to a life in prison.

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:47 am
by oragami_itto
Trick wrote:and there is a push for self driving cars. one may not even make it to the airport


Those are actually coming along, my mom's new car has this "assist" feature that will nudge you back into the lane if you start drifting out of bounds (assuming it can detect the lane) and also has a proximity detector to slow you down in traffic if you're using cruise control and conditions warrant it.

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:40 pm
by klonk
More from the same guy. I think he qualifies as an expert.

It sounds to me like the automation has become too complex for pilots to deal with. What he says about hand flying the airplane is correct. I have flown only aircraft with propellers, and limited electronics, but I get what he is saying, the right response was to turn off the HAL 9000, fly the plane like a Piper Cub: Stick and rudder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jNbayma9dM

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:57 pm
by klonk
Same guy again, discussing the fix that is in the works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGM0V7zEKEQ

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:06 pm
by Peacedog
Klonk,

I'd say another issue is that controlling some of these newer aircraft without computer assistance may or may not be possible. I do know that some of the newer military aircraft are aerodynamically unstable and the fly by wire systems are the only thing that makes controlling them possible.

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:16 pm
by Steve James
The 737 Max MCAS fix does not remove the need for software, or even remove MCAS. The software system is being recalibrated. But, like he says, there'll be an investigation about the process that allowed this flaw

Yep, stealth aircraft are not hand flyable.

Re: Boeing 737

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:47 pm
by aamc


Having seen this video, I would not say the problem is software. Its the design approach, it was a hack to get around the limitations of the airframe. A case of going quickly and not stopping to assess if the right problem was being fixed.