Cultural Appropriation

[Steve James]

Good for her. I hope it all worked out.

Makes me cry. But, she'll get all the help she wants. After what she's been through, it'll almost be a breeze. Except, there will be snobs and doubters. It can be very cruel. Students have committed suicide. It'll be hard for her to learn that it's okay to be herself.

[cloudz]

so it isn't really "cultural appropriation" that's the problem at all.

Wow, so glad you noticed.

cultural appropriation as a thing in itself is just bollocks.

Now you're confusing me.

if something is racist or whatever just call it what it is; call a spade a spade.

Who decides what's a spade? There's plenty of gas lighting, so it's necessary to be clear. For example, someone can wear blackface without meaning to be racist. They might think it is just funny. Remember the scandal when Prince Harry wore a Nazi uniform at a Halloween party? I had no real way of knowing whether he was anti-Semitic or racist.

However, I think that most people who wear blackface today do it, if not to ridicule and mock, to have a laugh at the expense of Black people --or, more precisely, the stereotype of Black people they invented to amuse themselves. It's not cultural appropriation. Duh. BLACKFACE is not my culture; it's your culture. You can decide whether it's racist or not. Some Black people are offended.

be serious about racism and respect of ALL people, whatever race, culture or creed.
that's worthy - "cultural appropriation" doesn't seem to be even close - and is no doubt the brainchild of people with a little too much time to waste or some other, perhaps more sinister, agenda.

Bullshit for the last part. No sinister agenda here. But, if you think so, please spit it out.

the problem Steve is that this is a case of shitty terminology.
every good idea needs a good metaphor.
this is a shit idea and a shit metaphor

Appropriation ?

I'm not casting you in the sinister role - silly - but divide and rule is not a new thing. This is divisive stuff.

I'm a Greek (Cypriot), maybe I should start complaining about fraternities in the US appropriating our letters or some other shit.
Thankfully I'm not that thin skinned and petty.

I don't really see that black face thing as cultural appropriation, but if you want to make it that be my guest. It's unsavoury and I can certainly appreciate it being offensive, I don't think the terminology fits so I would call it something else. Racist? sure I wouldn't object to that.

As for the Nazi bit, It was kind of a joke.. appropriation could be insensitive - not just to the culture being appropriated, but you can't cast all appropriation as malevolant. I think the spirit of it matters.

Like I said it's just shitty terminology. Unecessarily divisive and overall unecessary.
But someone is feeding people this divisive ideology. Look at the extremist cultures and polarization this kind of thing fuels.
Some people fall for it, other see through it.

[Steve James]

I don't really see that black face thing as cultural appropriation, but if you want to make it that be my guest.

If you think I "want to make it that," then you really haven't read what I've written.

this [Cultural appropriation] is a shit idea and a shit metaphor

I'm a Greek (Cypriot), maybe I should start complaining about fraternities in the US appropriating our letters or some other shit.
Thankfully I'm not that thin skinned and petty.

So, you really don't understand. Everybody knows that Greek letters are Greek, and Roman numerals came from the Romans. Now, when it comes to Arabic numerals came from the Arabs and Hindus. But, no, Greeks don't own their letters or words. We even "appropriate" terms like Democracy. Good thing the Greeks aren't petty, or they'd ask for royalties. However, it's very true that we (and much of the world) have taken things from Greek culture without Greek permission. Um, the Greeks did the same.

As for the Nazi bit, It was kind of a joke.. appropriation could be insensitive - not just to the culture being appropriated, but you can't cast all appropriation as malevolant. I think the spirit of it matters.

I don't understand Nazi jokes. But, you are clearly arguing with your own preconceived ideas, not me. I never have cast all appropriation as malevolent. In fact, I specifically said that it's only malevolent when it's intention stealing. For example, the US government has "appropriated" Indian lands, and continues to do so. They did not take the land with permission, but by force. Then, they made Indians on those reservations give up their own culture: i.e., their language, their dress, their hair was cut, were forced to convert to Christianity, and were punished for not doing any of those things. Then, the local football team would use their pictures and call them Redskins. Just using the symbol isn't the appropriation. It's the literal theft of culture that people condemn.

That's not the only type of cultural appropriation either. When people talk of western culture, they think of it as originating in and belonging to Europe. In fact, all world civilization (agriculture, religion, government, philosophy) has moved from east to west. As a Greek, you know that. Whether we're talking about Biblical or written historical records, that has been the process. Yet, as in the US, the appropriation comes from the people who take ownership and credit for the "culture." Nobody wants to take credit for homosexuality, though, do they?

However, the fact that people take credit for something has almost nothing to do with the benefit that is accrued. Appropriation is not necessarily a bad thing. In agriculture (get it), we have silk because someone literally stole silk worms. Mike asked, iinm, whether someone who converted to a religion was appropriating a culture. Technically, it's possible to call it that, but not everyone would say that it's bad. The Spaniards baptized Indians they met, in Latin. However, some people convert but are still not accepted fully.

This reminds me of the recent lacrosse world championships. No single Indian people had enough players to form a team to play a sport they invented. I don't think it's important to know the origin. I don't think it's malevolent. Otoh, I can see why some Indians would be pissed that others are profiting from "their" sport.

[windwalker]

For example, the US government has "appropriated" Indian lands, and continues to do so. They did not take the land with permission, but by force.

Its called war, they lost.
Did they "appropriate" the land from others before them?

Then, they made Indians on those reservations give up their own culture: i.e., their language, their dress, their hair was cut, were forced to convert to Christianity, and were punished for not doing any of those things. Then, the local football team would use their pictures and call them Redskins. Just using the symbol isn't the appropriation. It's the literal theft of culture that people condemn.

Its called losing a war.
Historically it doesn't work out to well for those who've lost.
As far as changing language and culture, its a common theme
usually happens to the ones losing a war, just as those aboriginals made slaves
of those they captured.

This reminds me of the recent lacrosse world championships. No single Indian people had enough players to form a team to play a sport they invented. I don't think it's important to know the origin. I don't think it's malevolent. Otoh, I can see why some Indians would be pissed that others are profiting from "their" sport.

If it was "their" sport seems like "they" should be pretty good at it and those making money from it
would seek them out to "win" at "a" sport....

[Steve James]

Its called war, they lost.

Right, and the winners do whatever they like to the losers. And, if the losers complain, they're thin-skinned. It's like putting people in ovens and turning their bodies into trinkets.

Yours is a cultural view of how and why wars are fought. But, I get it. I understand how it creates a terrible fear of ever losing. The other guy will treat you just as you would him. But, imo, man has no right to make slaves of others. Um, seem to have read that somewhere.

Afa lacrosse, Indians invented the game, but my point is that they don't own it. In fact, it's owned mostly by non-Indians. Cubans and Dominicans didn't invent baseball, but there are a whole bunch of them playing a sport with its roots in England. And, how many Jewish basketball players are there in the NBA? Ah, James Naismith invented basketball, right? Here's a picture of the NBA champions.
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnbahoopsonline.com%2Fteams%2FLosAngelesLakers%2FHistory%2FChampionships%2F1954lakers.jpg&f=1

Who "owns" basketball? Aopt, who "says they own" basketball or any other sport.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

If you build it, they will come...like troglodytes out of their caves they will come, knuckles dragging but top hats doffed.

[windwalker]

Its called war, they lost.

Right, and the winners do whatever they like to the losers. And, if the losers complain, they're thin-skinned. It's like putting people in ovens and turning their bodies into trinkets.

Is it? You think...its equivalent?


Yours is a cultural view of how and why wars are fought. But, I get it. I understand how it creates a terrible fear of ever losing. The other guy will treat you just as you would him. But, imo, man has no right to make slaves of others. Um, seem to have read that somewhere.
My views of war stem from 20 yrs in military service, its not about losing.
"Fear of losing" with this kind of thinking one is already defeated.





Afa lacrosse, Indians invented the game, but my point is that they don't own it. In fact, it's owned mostly by non-Indians. Cubans and Dominicans didn't invent baseball, but there are a whole bunch of them playing a sport with its roots in England. And, how many Jewish basketball players are there in the NBA? Ah, James Naismith invented basketball, right? Here's a picture of the NBA champions.
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnbahoopsonline.com%2Fteams%2FLosAngelesLakers%2FHistory%2FChampionships%2F1954lakers.jpg&f=1

Who "owns" basketball? Aopt, who "says they own" basketball or any other sport.

[Steve James]

Your whole point was that "they lost a war." Therefore, all the things I mentioned that happened to them was a result of that lost? No? I.e., they have to accept the treatment they get.

Now, what if I agree, and say that all the Confederates and Nazis should be put on reservations or prisons, or worse, because they lost? Or, they could be treated humanely and allowed to practice their cultures.

Btw, if someone appropriates your wallet by holding a gun on you, it's a crime called theft. It's even against one of the 10 Commandments (for Judeo-Christian believers). So, even if it's war, it's not right. In fact, talk about Greek philosophy; it's classic "might makes right." At any rate, just because he happened in the past doesn't mean it has to continue.

[windwalker]

Your whole point was that "they lost a war." Therefore, all the things I mentioned that happened to them was a result of that lost? No? I.e., they have to accept the treatment they get.

Had relatives on both sides of that war.
No they don't have to accept it they can always try again.


Now, what if I agree, and say that all the Confederates and Nazis should be put on reservations or prisons, or worse, because they lost? Or, they could be treated humanely and allowed to practice their cultures.
so ,

so what if you agree, this means what? They both lost wars, and were subjected to what ever the outcome
was for that time. For some its part of their history for others not.
The Germans seem to be still dealing with their guilt in a way that seems to be destroying
their culture. The Japanese came to an understanding that allowed them to move on.
For those in the south, for many they also have moved on.



Btw, if someone appropriates your wallet by holding a gun on you, it's a crime called theft. It's even against one of the 10 Commandments (for Judeo-Christian believers). So, even if it's war, it's not right. In fact, talk about Greek philosophy; it's classic "might makes right." At any rate, just because he happened in the past doesn't mean it has to continue.

do you know anything about war ?


""infantry closes with the enemy, by means of fire and maneuver,
in order to destroy or capture him, or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack".

nothing there about losing or fear of losing.

Might makes possible, the different view points that some seem to have problems with and now want to control.
As a doctrine its called peace though strength .



If some one "appropriates my wallet"

Dont have to imagine it , my uncle recently shot by some one wanting his camera.
He should have gave it up, but knowing him he didn't and got killed.
Had he the means to prevent it, I'm sure he would have....

Those that shot him now awaiting trial, hopefully will have a long time to consider
"the rest of their lives" the meaning of "might does makes right"
in a place were this is true every day.....

[windwalker]

whats the difference between someone feeling they'er of another culture

Rachel Dolezal, Elizabeth Warren

and someone feeling they are another sex?

Caitlyn Jenner, Chelsea Manning

did they appropriate their sex?

[Steve James]

Ha ha ha.

[edededed]

Culture is not unchanging, is it? In Japan they do not wear the long, multi-layered outfits of the Nara era anymore, and nor do women color their teeth black now. Self-inflicted suicide via disembowelment also is no longer in vogue. In the US, we also no longer wear powdered wigs like most of our esteemed founders did. Should we reinstall these things?

The Germans seriously considered their past, which is a good thing. Culture should go forward and improve. Culture does not mean right; things like headhunting, ritual warfare, human sacrifice, slavery (including sexual), etc. are all parts of cultures. Cultures usually improve by comparing with other cultures - like food, you have what you have, but it's nice to see what others are eating, so you get more ideas. Actually, food is culture, too. Like food, culture changes from things like:

Comparison: e.g. cooking techniques, spices, etc. learned from other cultures; fashion is similar but more fickle (e.g. karate uniforms randomly adopted many decades ago, but now that image is very strong)
Science: e.g. sanitation, like avoiding eating from the same bowls to avoid sharing germs; ability to take showers, so no more need for powdered wigs
Values: e.g. greater value to human life makes things like headhunting, slavery, sacrifice, seppuku, etc. seem horrible now.

The Japanese, compared to the Germans, have avoided the issue of their past, which is different from gaining more understanding of themselves. This comes from a general avoidance of sensitive topics and debate compared to Western countries. But I think that it is better to learn from the past than to just close your eyes and ignore it.

We are great "cultural appropriators" here on RSF - as mostly foreigners doing CMA. I don't see anything wrong with that. We still remember where it comes from. Culture is always exchanging, this is a good thing.

[cloudz]

stealing is still stealing, a rose by any other name.
if you need fancy terminology to make you feel a bit better, or to find new ways to express displeasure at peoples actions, I'm more than happy for you Steve.

the other night the England football team suffered racial abuse in Montenegro.

that's worthwhile to be concerned about. thus far, "cultural appropriation" just seems like an academics flight of fancy.
nothing much of substance behind it.

[cloudz]

If you build it, they will come...like troglodytes out of their caves they will come, knuckles dragging but top hats doffed.

Ad hominum personal attacks!
way to go, so that's how the smart kids win their arguments these days LOL

[Steve James]

stealing is still stealing, a rose by any other name.
if you need fancy terminology to make you feel a bit better, or to find new ways to express displeasure at peoples actions,I'm more than happy for you Steve.

Clearly, you don't take the trouble to understand what I've written. Tsk, tsk, reminds me of work.

But, nope, i don't think calling a fraternity "Delta House" is stealing from Greece. Meh, the "house" is from German anyway.

Anyway, people making fools of themselves in their attempt to ridicule others do not displease me. It's not tragedy to me; it's comedy. No thin skin, either. I've watched that fantasy show for almost 70 years. You need to say something substantial.