"pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

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"pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:02 am

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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby everything on Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:49 pm

I'm for life so let's KILL SOME PEOPLE.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby edededed on Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:04 pm

I hope that it is meant as a deterrent (and that nobody actually tries to carry out the death sentence).

The problem is that if it is set in law, then it will be possible to actually carry out the death sentence as a result.

(I am morally against abortion, too, but I don't agree with killing those who are a part of it.)
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:16 pm

Well, if a doctor were involved, it might constitute being an accessory to a crime. I think that may be the idea, anyway: to discourage health practitioners. For example, what about miscarriages? Who's guilty for ending the pregnancy then?

I don't have a moral objection to abortion. I'm simply against it, but I don't think it's up to me whether a woman decides to do it or not. There is certainly a difference between an embryo and a eight month old fetus. It makes sense to put a limit on when an abortion can take place; However, that's a scientific question, not a moral one. After all, it's a sin to "spill one's seed" because they are all potential babies.

I think a moral question is whether it's right to force a woman who's been raped to have the child and allow the rapist the rights of a father. I think if the state forces a birth, the state should be required to care for mother and child. Otoh, if the society and state were forced to take care of mothers and their offspring, there'd be calls for sterilization, birth control, and abortions.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby klonk on Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:01 pm

It is a trial balloon, no chance it will pass into law, but proposed to shift the point of discussion a bit.

In some jurisdictions, at least, you can be charged with two homicides if you kill a pregnant woman. Consistency is not a hallmark of American jurisprudence. In the case of abortion, the baby is a nonentity. But if killed together with the mother, society then notices him or her as protected by the law.

When a happy young wife announces to her friends she is pregnant, she and they say, "I'm having a baby, I'm so pleased," and "We are so happy you are having a baby." They do not say "fetus." Or "conceptus." Or "cell group."
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby edededed on Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:27 pm

Of course, sperm can never become viable human beings on their own. They live in the sense that they are our cells, albeit motile cells.

As placental mammals, our babies spend a long time in the placenta before they are ousted to the outer world. Other animals have evolved different strategies.

Human: fertilization -> long time in placenta -> birth
Kangaroo: fertilization -> short time in placenta -> birth -> long time in pouch
Bird: fertilization -> short time developing egg -> egg layed -> short-medium time incubating -> hatch

Compare:
Smashing a bird's egg that has a not-yet-fully-developed bird within
Killing a recently birthed joey (e.g. 60 days after fertilization) in its mother's pouch
Abortion of a recently fertilized fetus (e.g. 60 days after fertilization) in its mother's placenta

Is the difference between "abortion" and "murder" one that depends on the survivability of the baby? (E.g. 60-day old fetus cannot survive outside of the placenta yet. However, as medicine gets better, the stage from which babies survive gets earlier and earlier.)

One way to get rid of abortion may be to just advance medicine to improve fetal viability (currently at about 21 weeks). But law often takes a long time to catch up.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:20 pm

For example, what about miscarriages? Who's guilty for ending the pregnancy then?

Depends on the reason. If the reason can not be determined or if there is no one to blame, then there's no legal action in the US. Apparently Tennessee has a law against substance abuse during pregnancy and other states have codes for suspending parental rights.

I don't have a moral objection to abortion. I'm simply against it, but I don't think it's up to me whether a woman decides to do it or not.

Why not? I don't think there's any legal principle that limits the power of the law to one group, one gender, one anything. The law can go from anywhere to anyone. Also, it takes a man and a woman to make a baby, so men are involved. What's your reasoning?

Governor Northam of Virginia, the one who thinks it's okay to kill babies who survive abortions (see link below), also thinks male legislators shouldn't be telling women what they should and shouldn't be doing with their body.

I know of no moral or legal principle that men, society, or law should not have power over women or their bodies. It's a woman's body where she puts alcohol, how can we enforce DUI laws against a woman?

What is the rationale for such an exception? it just sounds like a spurious, libertarian wet dream appropriated by male feminists.


After all, it's a sin to "spill one's seed" because they are all potential babies.

The example about Onanism is not analagous because the distinction between a mother and the embryo or baby is that the baby, from conception, has a unique genetic code, the baby is a different person, whereas sperm is merely part of the man with the same code.

After conception, scientifically, the embryo is a different person.


There is certainly a difference between an embryo and a eight month old fetus. It makes sense to put a limit on when an abortion can take place; However, that's a scientific question, not a moral one.

Conception creates a new person. Hearbeat begins around six weeks, which is the cutoff in the Georgia bill their Congress has passed and is awaiting a signature.

Virginia state rep. Kathy Tran say the cutoff should be up to the moment of birth, 40 weeks, (video is 1:05 long) and Virginia Governor Blackface Northam agrees and goes further, saying the baby can be killed after birth (2 minute long video) as long as it's kept comfortable on the table and the physician discusses the killing with the mom. For some reason in this case he says the father can be involved in the decision, but earlier he said men should not legislate women's bodies.

Hey, women use their bodies to rob banks, but men or society really have nothing to say about that. Let's get cracking Bonnie Parker, you've got a get out of jail free card. Women also use their bodies for sex without the intention of procreation, so lesbian prostitution can not be regulated by male legislators, but if the John is male (but not trans?) then we can send in the vice squad. Sure, makes perfect sense.

Why should the cutoff not be at conception? That's when a new person is created? I can see a pragmatic reason for the law being six weeks because the technology to easily detect the baby is fairly recent, but the cutoff is really conception.


I think a moral question is whether it's right to force a woman who's been raped to have the child and allow the rapist the rights of a father.

It often works the other way when men who are raped by teachers or other older women are later forced to pay child support for their rapists' children. This is another example of how men have none or almost no choices about unwanted pregnancies or children. See docu "The Red Pill" [2017], shown at 55 min. 45 sec.

I think if the state forces a birth, the state should be required to care for mother and child.

The other perspective is that the state is not forcing a birth, but preventing a death or murder of the baby. The choice was made by the mother to have sex, her later choice for abortion being blocked by the state is not forcing her to have the baby. The state is preventing her from killing the baby. Exceptions for rape and incest are granted.

Virginia Rep. Kathy Tran

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0kC1B__CJ4

Virginia Governor Northam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkTopSKo1xs
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:03 pm

When a happy young wife announces to her friends she is pregnant, she and they say, "I'm having a baby, I'm so pleased," and "We are so happy you are having a baby." They do not say "fetus." Or "conceptus." Or "cell group."


When the pregnancy test indicated positive, we we'd say "We're expecting a baby." We didn't say "We have a baby." Saying that it's a baby doesn't mean that it is one yet, just that that if all goes well it will be. Or, there's a difference between being pregnant and having a baby.

But, I'm not in favor of abortions; I'm just not able to have a baby. I also have children with children, and have seen my wife have a miscarriage. Sorry, I think only a woman who is pregnant can make this decision. Society may, imo, decide when that decision can no longer be made. My problem is that society takes no responsibility for the babies it requires a woman to bear.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby klonk on Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:14 pm

Steve James wrote:My problem is that society takes no responsibility for the babies it requires a woman to bear.


That is a problem you just made up. I was on a ministry team that reached out to single moms, not just with good wishes and piety, but with diapers and food and daycare. In the public sector, WIC assistance is rather good at not asking questions. Their question is how to make sure your baby is okay, not how you did that.
Last edited by klonk on Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby GrahamB on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:37 pm

Aunt lydia approves. Blessed is the fruit.

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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:02 am

Sure, we can depend on klonk's team to take care of single moms, their babies, widows, and orphans. He promises.

Though, they seem to be dead set against health care for all. Now, I guess we don't need it because the churches and ministries will provide that to the babies.

But, as I said, I do not promote or encourage abortions. I just think it's the woman's decision. But, I refuse to believe American pretend piety. That's a joke.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:04 am

Oh, btw, my fifth grandchild was born on April 16! Mom named her Nixon Nicole. But, I will call her Nicky.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:38 am

But, I refuse to believe American pretend piety. That's a joke.

What is the pretend American piety here, that Americans care about babies, people, etc?
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:01 am

I care about babies. I'm American. I don't care about them because I'm Christian. But, yeah, I listen to the religious American right decide who is human, what should be done for the poor and homeless. I see who they decide is godly, too. So, you're probably right that "pretend" is the wrong word for them.

I just can't pretend to believe them at all. Not even Catholic priests. Certainly not like the evangelists who consider Trump "the most godly president we ever had." https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 495256002/

And, no, I'm not condemning true Christians (Muslims, or Jews). I'm talking about the "false" prophets whom we can recognize by their fruits. Read Matthew.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:15 am

Ya know Mike, ... when I read the title to this thread, I can't imagine that anyone who would suggest executing a woman for having an abortion is a Christian. I thought I recalled that years ago you were against the death penalty, and torture. I agreed, but said I felt that some people really deserved to die. But, then I remembered Sunday school, and the Jesus story about the adulteress about to be stoned.

You didn't even have to go to Sunday school to come to the same conclusion. Pick an issue in the US, then ask "What would Jesus do?" Otoh, don't, 'cause you'll be crucified.
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