"pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby grzegorz on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:05 pm

Exactly! Again El Salvador, over there men do what they want it seems. Beat your wife, murder your wife for adultery, send her to jail for a miscarriage...

It's ironic that Trump supporters are blocking Salvadorians when some of them think just like Trump supporters.

It's odd how that works. Most Latinos are religious conservatives yet the current brand of conservatives blames everything on Latinos.

Obviously though those who support strict laws on abortion probably won't watch those videos because again it is a belief verus reality.

All putting women in prison who have had abortions will do is fill up our prisons.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:11 pm

Steve James wrote:...my point had nothing to do with"slavery." I didn't even mention it. I said that white men voted to allow themselves to own other men.

In your world "white men voted to allow themselves to own other men" has nothing to do with slavery, but is relevant to abortion. That does't make any sense.

And you are talking about slavery. Why do you try to deny that?

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I scoff at men's arguments about what women want or why they want it.

Who cares what you scoff at? Like I said before, you sound like a deranged sovereign citizen.

What is the logic or the principle of why men can't make arguments about abortion? It affects men. Each pregnancy was started by a man.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:53 pm

Ok, what was it I was saying about slavery again?

Otoh, you can find abortion compared to slavery quite often. A judge made the comparison, and it was denounced by abortion rights advocates. Um, you can check, but:

The National Abortion Rights Action League (NARAL) has reacted fiercely to recent parallels drawn between abortion and slavery, calling the comparison “shameful & vile.”

NARAL’s tweet Sunday that abortion “is a basic human right—not slavery” and slamming comparisons between the two institutions came in reaction to a Huffington Post article attacking Judge John K. Bush, newly appointed to the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, who has compared abortion to slavery.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2017 ... eful-vile/

Some have used the comparison to justify bombing clinics and shooting doctors. It's like John Brown fighting to free slaves. (Yeah, I know. He was a White man. We used to sing songs about his heroism at camp. I guess you'd call it love speech. Anyway, I was just stating a fact about voting in the US.

What is the logic or the principle of why men can't make arguments about abortion? It affects men. Each pregnancy was started by a man.


Do you have kids Mike? If you did, I don't think you'd be so confident about that last part. Afa as offering logic and principle, it's useless since you respond with name calling and ridicule. It's easy to post videos and make jokes. Easier still to play the victim when it's not even about you.

It's okay that you scoff at my points. I'm a man. I can't have babies, and my life will never be threatened by having one. And, even so, nowadays all it takes is sperm, not any particular man. I still don't believe that a rapist should automatically get visiting rights, just because he put in the sperm. Convince me otherwise.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:32 pm

It's easy to post videos and make jokes. Easier still to play the victim when it's not even about you.


The derailer cries out as he accuses another of subverting the thread.

You sound like a deranged sovereign citizen because on a thread about a bill on abortion, you say the law is irrelevant because you personally scoff at it. Tell it to the judge.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:52 pm

Abortion isn't slavery, but denying access to safe and legal abortion is slavery.

If I need a kidney to live, I can't compel anyone to give me a kidney, not even my own children.

If I need someone to change my diaper and spoon feed me and move my arms and legs for me to prevent bedsores, I can't compel anyone to provide those services.

Why does a fetus have rights over others bodies that we don't extend to the living? If a woman does not choose to use her body to carry a fetus to term, forcing her to do so is a priori slavery.

We live in a society where families can be evicted to live in the street, and people can be condemned to death by corporate layoffs for a few pennies more in pockets already bursting at the seams, and the primary concern of some people is trying to further burden women with children they don't want or can't afford in the name of their own puritanical sexual morality (for others, mind you, they seem to all be having gay sex in random places).

You make drugs illegal you don't stop people using drugs you just put users in danger by forcing them to turn to unlicensed criminals for their products. Legalization has been proven to reduce harm.

Likewise, women who don't want a baby in their body are not easily swayed from their course. Where abortion is criminalized, abortions still happen, they're just nowhere near as safe. Criminalizing abortion increases harm. This is not theory or morality it's just facts.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby edededed on Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:33 pm

A human fetus is an unborn, living human. It is strange if it is only considered human (and given human rights) upon its delivery from the vaginal canal. Nowadays, fetuses can survive and become healthy adults even if they leave the placenta 4+ months earlier. When is the right timing to give them human rights?

It is very strange to call a fetus not living - it is certainly living. How is it not alive?

It is true that society frowns on pregnancy outside of marriage, etc. (despite the over-sexed media glorifying free sexual intercourse), and thus women will seek abortion even if it is illegal. But killing unborn babies is still killing unborn babies, too. It's a complex issue for sure.

Most country's laws punish parents for abusing their children, or neglecting them. Is this a kind of slavery that we are applying to these poor parents who want to be free of their kids and parental responsibility?

(Anyway, it is good to discuss, but let's try to keep it impersonal, folks! In the end we all (or most of us) want to do the right thing.)
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:21 pm

Whether or not the fetus is living or a person is immaterial. No person has the right to the use of another person's body without that person's consent, even including zygotes, embryos, and fetuses. No person is compelled to give part of their body to save or prolong the life of another person. Bodily autonomy must be absolute. If a woman does not want to gestate a fetus to term, for whatever reason she deems fit, the law should not compel her to do so. The authority is hers alone, and the matter private between herself and her doctor and whoever she wishes to involve.

The bottom line is no woman should be forced to bear a child against her will. All other concerns are secondary. She might want the man's opinion, she might not, that's her option to choose.

If we could stop wasting so much time, energy, and money fighting over this one issue, we could a lot more good for the kids we already have, which just might reduce the number who go on to have abortions.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby edededed on Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:35 pm

Human childbirth is a special case - the only way we can have life is via initial long gestation within the womb - and so requires special consideration. I think that your "absolute" reasoning is too binary (black or white) - not everything is so simple.

- Does anyone have the right to kill another person without that person's consent?

I like the Indian idea of ahimsa - "non-harm." That is, I think, the most basal, fundamental moral of all. Although shared by most cultures in a basic way, most disagree on who is included in the list of those not to harm. Benign humans are usually included, animals may not be. What about human babies, born or unborn? What allows them to get onto the list?
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:48 pm

Okay Shylock. Your Confederacy of Dunces legal theory is that prohibition of abortion is actually slavery? That's some fancy pinch hitting for Steve-o, I'll grant you, but I'm gonna throw you out rounding second with some Shakespeare.

All these discussions grant abortion exceptions for rape and incest, so...

The child was not made from barren metal, 'twas made with the consent of two people and set to multiply cell by cell within the womb, even faster than ducats in a Jew's register.

And the consequences of their consent is the child therein, with no power to enslave that which granted it lease of forty weeks. 'Tis merely a bargain between them all, a contract, enforced not by the coercion of the belly, rather by prevention of the baby's death, a just and moral aim.

But if you think like Shylock that you can have your pound of flesh, then take it without shedding a drop of the baby's blood and there will be no need of law to constrain you.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:24 pm

Steve James wrote:
the "white men" seem to come up in more and more places in the media. are there any more specific way to recognise them, for example - blond, blue eyed, scandinavian


Naw, white men only refers to the one group that has always been allowed to vote for most of the history of this country. That's not hate speech or an opinion, that's just the fact. Women didn't get the right to vote until the 1920s in the US and in Sweden. A Voting Rights Act was put in place during the 1960s to (attempt to) ensure the rights of black Americans to vote.

yes thats right, the "white" and "men" issues belong to the past, at least in the developed world.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:45 am

yes thats right, the "white" and "men" issues belong to the past, at least in the developed world.


:) If that were so, the reaction wouldn't be so .. enthusiastic. My point was that, here, now, on RSF, none of the people discussing the issue, with its medical, moral, religious, emotional, and psychological complexities, has or will ever be pregnant or a woman.

So, iow, it's just a bunch of guys debating among themselves how a woman should act when she is pregnant. Men, who also feel smug enough to decide that women should be punished. Hey, I've listened to guys on RSF argue that women shouldn't get the same pay for the same work, and offer other suggestions on how and why women should be restricted.

Afa the vitriol, name calling, accusations, etc., meh, diversions. I've never suggested that I endorse abortions --for casual reasons. So, the reason for the bad temper must be something else.

Anyway, forget everything above, and answer this. Suppose you are right, and abortions should be illegal. Let's assume that all your definitions of when human life begins are correct. What exactly should be the punishment for a woman who uses an iud or takes a morning after pill? I.e., right after conception. The title of this thread refers to penalties, specifically. Of course, you could never be subject to them, or could you? But, what would those penalties be?
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:27 am

edededed wrote:Human childbirth is a special case - the only way we can have life is via initial long gestation within the womb - and so requires special consideration. I think that your "absolute" reasoning is too binary (black or white) - not everything is so simple.

- Does anyone have the right to kill another person without that person's consent?

I like the Indian idea of ahimsa - "non-harm." That is, I think, the most basal, fundamental moral of all. Although shared by most cultures in a basic way, most disagree on who is included in the list of those not to harm. Benign humans are usually included, animals may not be. What about human babies, born or unborn? What allows them to get onto the list?

It's very simple. The woman has a right to control what happens to her body, and that right is absolute. Just as men have the absolute right to control what happens to their body.

Do you have any idea how hard it is for a woman to obtain a tubal ligation? Using the same excuses you're parroting here, concern for their future husband, and the children they might want to have. Most doctors simply will not perform the procedure unless you're a woman who is married and already has kids and your husband says it's okay.

But men can have a vasectomy any time despite their status as parents or husbands, and nobody else has to approve the decision.

THIS is the problem, which also extends to abortion laws and restrictions, lack of agency and bodily autonomy. The use of faux concern for the children to justify depriving citizens of fundamental rights.

Having a child is not a trivial endeavor, you're talking around 9 months of irreversible changes to your anatomy and biochemistry, and then either a lifetime of caring for the product or foisting it off on an already overburdened and in many cases corrupt foster care system. Having an abortion is not a trivial endeavor, the drive to reproduce is our most primal motivation. When for some reason the woman does not want to go through the process, that desire is more powerful than that primal motivation. The state has no right to interfere with that woman's life and livelihood.

Perhaps most importantly is the penalization of poverty. The rich will always have access to safe abortions for when they or their little darlings have accidents, but those of little means who are least capable of providing for new children are forced to resort to unsafe butchers without proper environments or equipment.

The tl;dr, restricting legal abortion restricts the rights of woman to be in control of their own bodies, and disproportionately affects the poor negatively and honestly I'm just done with the conversation at this point. There is nothing more that needs to be said, but I'm sure that won't stop what doesn't.

Oh, and I am the father of three children, and have paid for one abortion, and have no regrets about any of them.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:35 am

well i havent discussed the abortion issue here in this thread, im not engaged in that issue so dpnt ask me, i have no answers for you on it. i just skimmed through the thread and happened to see that "white men" statement again, and i kind of wondered what that really mean
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:48 am

Michael wrote:Okay Shylock. Your Confederacy of Dunces legal theory is that prohibition of abortion is actually slavery? That's some fancy pinch hitting for Steve-o, I'll grant you, but I'm gonna throw you out rounding second with some Shakespeare.

All these discussions grant abortion exceptions for rape and incest, so...

The child was not made from barren metal, 'twas made with the consent of two people and set to multiply cell by cell within the womb, even faster than ducats in a Jew's register.

And the consequences of their consent is the child therein, with no power to enslave that which granted it lease of forty weeks. 'Tis merely a bargain between them all, a contract, enforced not by the coercion of the belly, rather by prevention of the baby's death, a just and moral aim.

But if you think like Shylock that you can have your pound of flesh, then take it without shedding a drop of the baby's blood and there will be no need of law to constrain you.


Very strange to bring in two things that don't help your argument. Those being antisemitism and Elizabethan sensibilities (buggery was punishable by death). Neither of these things has a place in our modern society, found in the Merchant of Venice or not. :-X
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Re: "pro life" politicians seek death penalties for women

Postby Michael on Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:10 pm

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:Very strange to bring in two things that don't help your argument. Those being antisemitism and Elizabethan sensibilities (buggery was punishable by death). Neither of these things has a place in our modern society, found in the Merchant of Venice or not. :-X


When the neo-liberal thought police had you in Room 101 with that metaphorical rat cage known as the education system over your head, did they crank it all the way to 11 in order to abort your sense of humor or was 10 high enough to destroy your appreciation for yesterday's art?

Quick: How many lines of anti-semitism are in a Shakespearan sonnet?
Answer: As many as the Elizabethan sensibility political correctness enforcers say there are.

Case in point: Steve thinks only women can have babies. However, you can be arrested by the thought police for saying that in the UK.

none of the [men on RSF] has or will ever be pregnant or a woman


Britain's first pregnant man gives birth to a baby girl after conceiving using a sperm donor he met on Facebook.

Mother arrested for calling a transgender woman a man on Twitter.

Don't you guys feel a little embarrassed being such poor acolytes of your lefty religion? You might want to go to church a little more often, maybe do some speech purity cleanses or something.
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